Why the Trinity stands the test of time.

There are many antitrinitarians today but they are in a no win situation. Even if I say the trinity exists, even without biblical evidence, they cannot prove it wrong. Simply because you cannot prove something does not exist.

The most they can do is demonstrate to the trinitarians how they butcher scripture trying to make it fit their ideas. Thereby discrediting anything they say about scripture.

Their most obvious fallacy is in trying to prove Jesus isn't God when his Father is God. This makes him God just as a human father makes people human.

Comments

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,947
    edited December 2019

    Good to see you back among the threads, Dave. Welcome.


    @Dave_L posted:

    There are many antitrinitarians today but they are in a no win situation. Even if I say the trinity exists, even without biblical evidence, they cannot prove it wrong. Simply because you cannot prove something does not exist.

    No one can prove the Trinity does not exist. That's not often considered a strong argument.

    • You can't prove that you've never committed murder, therefore... you must have committed murder?
    • I can't prove there aren't five-headed tarantulas with frog feet and horse-like tails living somewhere on earth, therefore... there must be five-headed tarantulas with frog feet and horse-like tails living somewhere on earth?

    I don't say the Trinity doesn't exist - it clearly does exist as a theological construct faithfully embraced by billions of Christians over the centuries. I say the vast majority of the biblical witness - both the Old Testament and the New - reports that Jesus was not and could not have been God. (For a sense of how I read the biblical record presented in Matthew's Gospel, review my assessment of about two dozen matthean texts in THIS THREAD. I would welcome your response to the texts presented in that thread.)


    The most they can do is demonstrate to the trinitarians how they butcher scripture trying to make it fit their ideas. Thereby discrediting anything they say about scripture.

    A charge like this is easy to make, but not so easy to prove, at least in this case. Please accept my challenge to do so here by directly addressing the challenge I have already posed to @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus:

    • I contend that Matthew 12.15-21 is a critical passage. In v.16, Jesus warns those he has healed “not to reveal who he was.” In v.17, Matthew tells us of the fulfillment of an Isaianic prophecy (Isaiah 42.1-4) in which the prophet quotes God’s reference to “my Servant, whom I have chosen. He is my beloved, whom I have chosen. He is my Beloved, who pleases me. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations....” That is, for Matthew, Jesus is God’s servant, one God chose and on whom God put God’s spirit (c.f. Matthew 3.16-17) I contend that the distinction between God and Jesus here, at least for the Gospel writer, is quite clear. Where in the text do you find reason to dispute my interpretation?

    You claim that "antitrinitarians" "butcher scripture trying to make it fit their ideas." Here's your chance to validate your claim, Dave. As one who apparently claims not to "butcher scripture," surely you will be able to demonstrate the errors of my take on the Matthew 12 text.


    Their most obvious fallacy is in trying to prove Jesus isn't God when his Father is God. This makes him God just as a human father makes people human.

    Matthew 5.44-45: 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 

    Matthew 5.48: But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

    Matthew 6.1: “Watch out! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven

    Matthew 6.6: But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. 

    Matthew 6.9: Pray like this:  Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. 

    Matthew 6.15: But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. 

    Matthew 6:18: Then no one will notice that you are fasting, except your Father, who knows what you do in private. And your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. 

    Matthew 10.20; Matthew 10.29

    Matthew 23.19: And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your Father.

    Mark 11.25: But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.” 

    Luke 6.36: You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate. 

    Luke 12.32: “So don’t be afraid, little flock. For it gives your Father great happiness to give you the Kingdom. 

    John 20.17: “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” 

    In my view, those verses clearly demonstrate 1) that Jesus considered God to be everyone's "Father," not just his own; and 2) that Jesus considered God to be our "Father" (and God) in the same way God was his own "Father" (and God).

    By your argument, Dave, since God is your "Father" and mine, you and I must be God, just as our human fathers make us human.


    I look forward to your reply. It's good to see you back in the forums.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2019

    The Father God begat the Son without a human father. So the Son is also God. Just as we are human because our fathers are human.

    If unitarians could grasp this single biblical fact, they would not be blind to the abundance of scriptures showing God is trinity.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    The Father God begat the Son without a human father. So the Son is also God. Just as we are human because our fathers are human.

    what about the human mother, Dave?

    If unitarians could grasp this single biblical fact, they would not be blind to the abundance of scriptures showing God is trinity.

    If only there wee an abundance of Scripture showing God is a trinity ... 😉 Actually -- and, please note -- trinity adherents all agree that the trinity is not even mentioned once in the Biblical Scriptures.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    The Son of God and the Son of Man. The proven creeds say Jesus the Man has a fully human nature and a fully divine nature. But God dwells in him as the temple made without hands. You can say a puppy is a dog because its father is a dog. But you cannot use the same logic and say the Son of God is God because his Father is God. This is what makes understanding the bible an impossible task for any failing to grasp this.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,947

    @Dave_L posted:

    The Father God begat the Son without a human father. So the Son is also God. Just as we are human because our fathers are human.

    If unitarians could grasp this single biblical fact, they would not be blind to the abundance of scriptures showing God is trinity. ...


    The Son of God and the Son of Man. The proven creeds say Jesus the Man has a fully human nature and a fully divine nature. But God dwells in him as the temple made without hands. You can say a puppy is a dog because its father is a dog. But you cannot use the same logic and say the Son of God is God because his Father is God. This is what makes understanding the bible an impossible task for any failing to grasp this.

    Neither of these responses even mentions, let alone directly responds to, the matters I raised for your consideration in my previous post.

    1. The fact that I can't prove the Trinity doesn't exist is not a strong argument. You can't prove that you've never robbed a bank. Does that mean we should conclude you've robbed a bank? Obviously not. The point I make is not that the concept doesn't exist, but rather that according to the vast majority of the biblical witness, Jesus is not and could not be God.
    2. I contend that Matthew 12.15-21 is a critical passage because Matthew describes Jesus as the fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah 42 in which God chooses and pours God's spirit on a "servant." That's NOT the description of a member of the Godhead.
    3. I cited 14 Gospels passages in which Jesus clearly declares God to be our "Father" in the same way God is his "Father." By your logic, then, you and I must be God because God is our "Father," and that makes us God the same way "human fathers make us human."


    In a previous post you claimed that people who hold my point of view about the Trinity "butcher Scripture trying to make it fit their ideas." Here's your chance to show us what you mean and to demonstrate how I "butcher Scripture" when I interpret Matthew 12 and the 14 other texts the way I do. I will welcome and respond directly to your reply.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Our daddy is our father by God's arrangement. Making us human. But the Son did not have a human father. His Father is God making him God too.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    The Son of God and the Son of Man.

    Yes ... BUT this not the same as "God and Man". Adam was the Son of God without a human father ..was he too God?

    The proven creeds say Jesus the Man has a fully human nature and a fully divine nature.

    I don't care what creeds say ... especially if they say things which they themselves can't even explain (such as "fully human nature and a fully divine nature") and purposely mingle and confuse.

    By the way, believers in Christ are partakers of human nature and are partakers of the divine nature (2Pe 1:4) ...Dave, according to your creeds logic, you would also be man and God???

    But God dwells in him as the temple made without hands. You can say a puppy is a dog because its father is a dog.

    A puppy is a dog because BOTH the father and mother are dogs ...

    What then happened in the case of Jesus? Did God's miraculous working bring about a human being or a God?? Did his mother Mary give birth to God or a human baby??

    But you cannot use the same logic and say the Son of God is God because his Father is God. This is what makes understanding the bible an impossible task for any failing to grasp this.

    Hmn ... So you flat out contradict yourself: FIrst you claim because God fathered Jesus, Jesus is God, here then you say that one cannot say that the Son of God because his Father is God.

    It seems rather clear that your claim about Trinity and Jesus (the Son of God) is God is a grave error.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    How can he not be the Son of God when he did not have a human father? And claims God is his father?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402
    edited December 2019

    How can he not be the Son of God when he did not have a human father? And claims God is his father?

    Who said he was not the Son of God? Jesus was the only begotten Son of God as the records in Mt 1:18-25 and also Lk 1:35ff tell.

    And, please note, those records tell that Jesus was a human, a male child, born of a human mother. All those born of women are human. Women do not give birth to God or "baby Gods", do they?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Matthew 4:3

    And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

    Matthew 4:6

    And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    Matthew 8:29

    And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Matthew 14:33

    Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    Matthew 26:63

    But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

    Matthew 27:40

    And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

    Matthew 27:43

    He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

    Matthew 27:54

    Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    Mark 1:1

    The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    Mark 3:11

    And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

    Mark 15:39

    And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

    Luke 1:35

    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Luke 3:38

    Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Luke 4:3

    And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

    Luke 4:9

    And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

    Luke 4:41

    And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

    Luke 8:28

    When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

    Luke 22:70

    Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

    John 1:34

    And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John 1:49

    Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    John 3:18

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5:25

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    John 9:35

    Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

    John 10:36

    Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    John 11:4

    When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

    John 11:27

    She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    John 19:7

    The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

    John 20:31

    But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Acts 8:37

    And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Acts 9:20

    And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

    Romans 1:4

    And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    2 Corinthians 1:19

    For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

    Galatians 2:20

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Ephesians 4:13

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Hebrews 4:14

    Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

    Hebrews 6:6

    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Hebrews 7:3

    Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    Hebrews 10:29

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    1 John 3:8

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1 John 4:15

    Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

    1 John 5:5

    Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    1 John 5:10

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    1 John 5:12

    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    1 John 5:13

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    1 John 5:20

    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    Revelation 2:18

    And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402
    edited December 2019

    @Dave_L ... thanks for a long list of verses from the NT, that all say what has been said by all forum participants all along ... that the man Jesus is THE SON OF GOD.

    What was the purpose of your post with all those verses? what did you mean to show or prove with this list of verses? I would hope that you noticed while posting the verses that NOT ONE verse says or teaches that "Son of God" = "God" ... or that Jesus is God.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,539

    Why the Trinity stands the test of time?

    1. It's before time, where man is concerned.
    2. The word "trinity" is not in the Bible, but the Bible as a whole of Scripture, reveals the "Us" as One.
    3. Those who believed the Bible as Inspired (Gk-- "God-breathed") accepts God (as One) in all its manifestations. Just because God's revelation exceeds man's, pea-brains, ability to comprehend One in three fully, it doesn't mean it is not.
    4. The Bible must be accepted as a whole in all that it reveals and not in selected verses to appease human reasons or intellect. God is the Creator, and man created. Why compare a baby's mind/brain with his/her parents? As a baby grows in stature, so he would do so in knowledge, wisdom, and comprehension. However, in all his growth, he will never fully grasp the mind of God or all that He does. Only those things God reveals through "general" and "special" revelations, man will understand.
    5. The Bible is a Divine-human Book. The God who inspired men to write, it takes the same God (The Holy Spirit) to understand the revelation, know by many as "illumination."
    6. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in Purpose, One in Power, and One in Redemption!
    7. The Trinity will stand the test of time because of God's love and the humility/sacrifice of Jesus to redeem man.

    The spewing of human reasoning ("broken-cisterns") to explain the nature, power, and manifestations of God without Divine illumination can be annoying to some in these forums. However, I encourage all to look beyond human frailty. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart" and lean not to our own understanding. "In all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight" (Prov. 3: 5-6). There is no limit to the depths, dissecting God to satisfy human reasoning, a man would go, without the "illuminating," indwelling, empowerment of God, in his approach to Scripture.

    We can attain to an understanding of God's word only through the illumination of that Spirit by which the word was given. “The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God;” “for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11, 10. And the Saviour's promise to His followers was, “When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.... For He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you.” John 16:13, 14

    I would say to the Deists, Arians, the believers in the Age of Enlightenment ["reason, individualism, and skepticism"], that the recognition of Christ's humanity, doesn't nullify His divinity.. There are many things apparently difficult or obscure, which God will make plain and simple to those who thus seek an understanding of them. But without the guidance of the Holy Spirit we shall be continually liable to wrest the Scriptures or to misinterpret them. There is much reading of the Bible that is without profit and in many cases a positive injury. When the word of God is opened without reverence and without prayer; when the thoughts and affections are not fixed upon God, or in harmony with His will, the mind is clouded with doubts; and in the very study of the Bible, skepticism strengthens. The enemy takes control of the thoughts, and he suggests interpretations that are not correct. Whenever men are not in word and deed seeking to be in harmony with God, then, however learned they may be, they are liable to err in their understanding of Scripture, and it is not safe to trust to their explanations. Those who look to the Scriptures to find discrepancies, have not spiritual insight. With distorted vision they will see many causes for doubt and unbelief in things that are really plain and simple.  CM


    PS. I hope the New Year (2020) would bring Bill out of his self-imposed restriction and engaged this post, not through a surrogate or acolytes. In my opinion, it was unwarranted from the start. Notwithstanding, these forums afford one the freedom of choice. CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Son of God = being of the same species as God. Son of Man = being of the same species as Mary. Jesus did not have a human father.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Hi CM. I did find the word trinity in the bible. The corresponding word in

    Greek is "Τριάς" (Trias), meaning "a set of three" or

    "the number three." https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

    “For there are three [Τριάς] that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7 (KJV 1900)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    Son of God = being of the same species as God. Son of Man = being of the same species as Mary. Jesus did not have a human father.

    Impossible idea ..

    Since Mary could not give birth to a different species, it follows that God miraculously caused the conception of a HUMAN being in Mary. Furthermore, there are no TWO SPECIES living beings, except perhaps in human devised mythologies where you find "God-men" and "man-Gods"

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Son of God = God. Just as a puppy is a dog because its father is a dog.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    Son of God = God. Just as a puppy is a dog because its father is a dog.

    Thus, you believe that God has a mother and Mary actually gave birth to God (or was it a half-God?)

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2019

    We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

    Chalcedonian Creed (A.D. 451)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    @Dave_L ... elevating a creed from 451AD above Scripture ... thanks for clarifying

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,539

    Dave,

    Thanks for your response to my post. There are some issues around the verse submitted. I am surprise Wolfgang didn't pointed it out to you (not that he knows everything). It doesn't lesson the "Trinity" concept throughout the Bible in my mind. However, I wanted to remind you of the concerns some may have when it comes to 1 John 5:7-8.

    In the following examples the King James Version differs from the NIV, and NASV. because it bases it's translation on the Byzantine text-type and the NIV and NASV base theirs on the Alexandrian text-type

    1. KJV 1 John 5:7-8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."
    2. NIV 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that testify: v. 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement."
    3. When Erasmus first printed the Greek New Testament in 1514 it did not contain the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth," because they were not found in any of the Greek manuscripts that Erasmus looked at.
    4. These words were not quoted by any of the Greek church fathers. They most certainly would have been used by the church fathers in their 3rd and 4th century letters if found in the Greek manuscripts available to them.
    5. These words are not found in any ancient versions of the New Testament. These include Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic, nor in the Old Latin in its early form.
    6. These words begin to appear in marginal notes in the Latin New Testament beginning in the fifth century. From the sixth century onward these words are found more and more frequently.
    7. Erasmus finally agreed to put these words into new editions of his Greek New Testament if his critic's could find one Greek manuscript that contained these words. It appears that his critics manufactured manuscripts to include these words.
    8. These additional words are found in only eight manuscripts as a variant reading written in the margin. Seven of these manuscripts date from the sixteenth century and one is a tenth century manuscript.
    9. Erasmus' New Testament became the basis for the Greek New Testament, "Textus Receptus", which the King James translators used as the basis for their translation of the New Testament into English.

    Notwithstanding, a passage is understood within a context of chapter, a book and the rest of the Bible. In view of this, God is One (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). I hope this help? CM


    SOURCES:

    1. Strobel, LeeThe Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998
    2. White, James R. The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Modern Translations? Minneapolis, Bethany House Publishers, 1995.
    3. Metzger, Bruce M. The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration Oxford, Oxford University Press, 2005.
    4. Aland, Kurt and Barbara. The Text of The New Testament an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism. Grand Rapids, Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1995
    5. Wurthwein, Ernst. The Text of The Old Testament: An Introduction to the Biblia Hebraica. Grand Rapids, Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1995
    6. Metzger, Bruce M. Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament. Stuttgart, United Bible Societies, 1995.
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  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    Notwithstanding, a passage is understood within a context of chapter, a book and the rest of the Bible. In view of this, God is One (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). I hope this help? CM

    IF God is only ONE, why do you then declare in your "(....)" insert God to be THREE ???

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,947

    @C_M_ posted:

    PS. I hope the New Year (2020) would bring Bill out of his self-imposed restriction and engaged this post, not through a surrogate or acolytes. In my opinion, it was unwarranted from the start. Notwithstanding, these forums afford one the freedom of choice. CM

    I agree with you as to the freedom of choice available to posters in these forums.

    As to my "self-imposed restriction," I offered a comprehensive review of the reasons for it and the circumstances under which it would end in PMs I sent to you on October 3 and November 23. Please advise if for some reason those PMs are no longer in your Inbox; I will re-post them to you. Alternatively, if you request, I will post the content of those PMs in this or a new public thread.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,539

    Bro. Bill,

    I have no interest or desire to regurgitate yesterday's nebulous conversations. It is equally unproductive to soil the genesis of a good thread with a former PM. Why would you even offer to introduce the content of a PM ("Personal" [private] Message") in the public forum? This rings as being "Trumpian". I don't want to envision you stooping to this level. It's so below you. However, I wouldn't deny or deprive you of the right to continue your bemoaning in a PM, if you choose this path.

    I am appalled to know that you would let an insignificant matter imprisoned you. As far back as "October 3 and November 23," to live rent-free in your head -- robbing you of greater peace is really unnecessary. 

    Bill, you are better than this! Enjoy the forums and be a witness to biblical truth. I am sure this is what your "Master" would want of you.

    I had to be away from the forums and am only back for this short period. I'm trying to make the most of it. We shouldn't sour these forums with personal "stuff," especially for so long. We can do better. I call upon your higher-self to end this year at peace and start the new year (2020) with a "clean slate." Besides, life is too short. Almost, Happy New Year! CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,947

    @C_M_ posted:

    I have no interest or desire to regurgitate yesterday's nebulous conversations. It is equally unproductive to soil the genesis of a good thread with a former PM. Why would you even offer to introduce the content of a PM ("Personal" [private] Message") in the public forum? This rings as being "Trumpian". I don't want to envision you stooping to this level. It's so below you. However, I wouldn't deny or deprive you of the right to continue your bemoaning in a PM, if you choose this path.

    I'm not certain what it means to "regurgitate nebulous conversations," but if in this instance it refers to raising a matter that neither of us has mentioned in more than a month (i.e. since my November 23 PM) then it seems to me that by your latest post you've committed the regurgitation, not I. I've been and remain content to allow the matter to lie in its current state permanently, without further notice either in public posts or PMs. You're the one who has raised the matter to our attention again, not I.


    I am appalled to know that you would let an insignificant matter imprisoned you. As far back as "October 3 and November 23," to live rent-free in your head -- robbing you of greater peace is really unnecessary.

    I encourage you to revisit the PMs I sent you on this matter, CM. Because, as I explained in those messages, a matter of principle involved, for me this is NOT an "insignificant matter," and I feel no imprisonment or loss of "greater peace" whatsoever.


    This rings as being "Trumpian".

    🙂


    I don't want to envision you stooping to this level. It's so below you. However, I wouldn't deny or deprive you of the right to continue your bemoaning in a PM, if you choose this path.

    Acting on matters of principle is not "below" me, CM; in fact, it's about as on level with me as anything I can cite.

    Since I have not communicated with you about this matter since my November 23 PM, and until your recent post, had no intention of communicating with you about it except as explained in that message, I won't be "continu(ing) [my] bemoaning in a PM"... but thanks for the permission.


    Enjoy the forums and be a witness to biblical truth. I am sure this is what your "Master" would want of you.

    I agree and intend to do both.


    I had to be away from the forums and am only back for this short period. I'm trying to make the most of it. We shouldn't sour these forums with personal "stuff," especially for so long. We can do better. I call upon your higher-self to end this year at peace and start the new year (2020) with a "clean slate." Besides, life is too short. Almost, Happy New Year! 

    Again, if either of us has "sour(ed) these forums with personal 'stuff'" it's you, CM, not I. With your recent post, you returned the matter to the threads; I merely responded to your post. As I believe I made clear in my PMs, in this matter there is one and only one way to "start the new year with a 'clean slate.'" You've made your choice in the matter clear, a choice I accept without animus or disrespect. I hope you will similarly accept my choice.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,539

    Bill,

    What do you think of the content, of my post, to Dave above? CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    It must be in the oldest manuscripts because Cyprian quotes it saying "and again it Is written of the Father, and of the Son. and of the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one' " CYPRIAN 200-258 AD. Treatises (I 5:423).

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    It must be in the oldest manuscripts because Cyprian quotes it saying "and again it Is written of the Father, and of the Son. and of the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one' " CYPRIAN 200-258 AD. Treatises (I 5:423).

    Hmn .... "And these three are one {one WHAT? one in what regard?)".

    I know of a man and a dog, and those two are [at least sometimes 😉] one (one in what regard?) ...

    How about a husband and a wife, they are one (one in what regard?) ...

    I recently observed a basketball game ... there were players in yellow shirts, there were players in blue shirts ... the yellow shirt players were one, the blue shirt players were not one ... (one in what regard?)

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,539

    Wolfgang,

    Who can understand God, except He reveals Himself? CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,402

    Who can understand God, except He reveals Himself? CM

    Those who read the Scriptures with understanding can understand God to the degree in which He already has revealed in them.

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