A scripture that awaits to be seen in the light... (Matthew 28:19)
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@Pages No one is disputing the above; however, this life-force supplied by God as defined by the WT is simply generic and a one-size-fits-all concept. Given the above definitional WT statements on this matter and going back to your "He did not die but was transferred." remark – it is quite illogical, and incoherent, to suppose the creature Michael survived his life-force removal.
Angels are spirits. They can manifest in the flesh. They can also de-materialize in a moments notice. The angels that sinned in Jesus day would even take possession of a human body. In Michael's case, he was not put to death, nor was his life force removed, his Life Force was simply transferred into the womb of the virgin named Mary and was given the name Jesus. Yes, Life is energy, similar to a car battery.
God exercises unsurpassed force throughout the universe. Regarding the way he created the countless billions of stars, the Bible says: “Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he [God] calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.”—Isaiah 40:25, 26.
- So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me." (Hebrews 10:5)
- Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God." (Hebrews 10:7)
- By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. (Hebrews 10:10)
- For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (1 Peter 3:18)
- At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; but he disappeared from them. (Luke 24:31)
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"Angels are spirits. They can manifest in the flesh. They can also de-materialize in a moments notice. The angels that sinned in Jesus day would even take possession of a human body.
Yes, angels are creatures whose primary domain is in the non-physical realm, and can take on human form, even possession of another creature (cf. human and swine NT). This still misses the mark, that in these above mentioned cases the life-force sustaining them is not transferred. So, it is irrelevant to the discussion.
"In Michael's case, he was not put to death, nor was his life force removed, his Life Force was simply transferred into the womb of the virgin named Mary and was given the name Jesus. Yes, Life is energy, similar to a car battery."
I beg to differ, when the life-force sustaining Michael was transferred it no longer then resided in the creature Michael – and according to the WT's own teaching on the subject, the creature without a life-force dies, ceases to exist.
Once again, I quote the WT:
- "But without that spirit, or life-force, our bodies “die and return to the dust” as the psalmist stated."
- "Whereas the human soul is the living person himself, the spirit is simply the life force that enables that person to be alive. The spirit has no personality, nor can it do the things a person can do. It cannot think, speak, hear, see or feel."
A soul and a life-force are two completely separate and independent components of a living creature; the transference of the life-force as it is called, does not include anything to do with a creature's nature, essence, character, etc. In other words, what makes something to be what it is, the soul, is entirely missing. So it is impossible under this rubric to claim Michael is the enfleshed Jesus.
"God exercises unsurpassed force throughout the universe. Regarding the way he created the countless billions of stars, the Bible says: “Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he [God] calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.”—Isaiah 40:25, 26."
Though not our topic God's creative power is unfathomable and wonderful. Specifically, what is under the microscope is the WT's teaching on soul, spirit, and death; and more specifically, as it relates to Michael and Jesus.
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@Pages Yes, angels are creatures whose primary domain is in the non-physical realm, and can take on human form, even possession of another creature (cf. human and swine NT). This still misses the mark, that in these above mentioned cases the life-force sustaining them is not transferred. So, it is irrelevant to the discussion.
Why does that miss the mark? Those disobedient angels did not die when they manifested in the flesh during Noah's Days. Nor did the angels die when taking possession of a human body or when they were cast into the swine. What was a a huge herd of swine doing in Israel anyways?
If an angel can manifest in the flesh...or take possession of a human body to control it, then Jehovah transferring Michael's Life Force into Mary's womb in order to provide his means of Salvation is not illogical at all.
Last week for the first time in your life, it was revealed to you that Adam was not given a soul but rather became a living soul by Jehovah blowing his Life Force into Adam's nostrils (aka breath of life among creatures of flesh). Instead of being overjoyed in the spirit you spurned it. Even bird and marine animals are referred as living souls.
Since angels are spirits, they have no moving parts to wear out. But they are also mortal agents. As long as they are faithful they have everlasting life in view. Angels that are disobedient will be destroyed at a chosen time.
Mark 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!”
Luke 4:34
“Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”
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@Brother Rando October 10 If an angel can manifest in the flesh...or take possession of a human body to control it, then Jehovah transferring Michael's Life Force into Mary's womb in order to provide his means of Salvation is not illogical at all.
Why did All-Powerful God need Life Force (impersonal electricity per JW.org) from Michael the archangel to be transferred ?
When an angel manifests in flesh, the angel is still an angel, but transferring Life Force (impersonal electricity per JW.org) from Michael the archangel would have caused Michael the archangel existence to cease.
@Brother Rando October 10 Mark 1:24 “What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!”
@Brother Rando October 10 Luke 4:34
“Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”
What is the Holy One of God's Name ?
Searching Lexham English Bible for name NEAR "Holy One" NEAR (God OR Israel) finds three verses:
Isaiah 47:4 LEB => Our redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts is his name, the holy one of Israel.
Isaiah 54:5 LEB => For your husband is your maker, his name is יהוה Yahweh of hosts; and your redeemer is the holy one of Israel, he is called the אלהים God of all of the earth.
Isaiah 60:9 LEB => Because the coastlands wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish are first to bring your children from afar, their silver and gold with them, for the name of יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God, and for the holy one of Israel, because he has glorified you.
How many subject(s) are in Isaiah 44:6 LEB ? =>
Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts:
“I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me.
Why did יהוה Salvation (Jesus) identify as "..., the first and the last," in Revelation 22:12-16 LEB ? =>
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with me, to repay each one according to what his deeds are! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Blessed are the ones who wash their robes, so that their authority will be over the tree of life and they may enter into the city through the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral people and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and who practices falsehood.
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Brother Rando October 10 If an angel can manifest in the flesh...or take possession of a human body to control it, then Jehovah transferring Michael's Life Force into Mary's womb in order to provide his means of Salvation is not illogical at all.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
ChristWhy did All-Powerful God need Life Force (impersonal electricity per JW.org) from Michael the archangel to be transferred ? When an angel manifests in flesh, the angel is still an angel, but transferring Life Force (impersonal electricity per JW.org) from Michael the archangel would have caused Michael the archangel existence to cease.By faith Eʹnoch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well. (Hebrews 11:5)
Michael the Archangel when translated means "Who is like God? Chief Messenger." He is the Captain of Jehovah's Army, the One telling Joshua “No, but I have come as Prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” (Joshua 5:14)
The Prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:15)
Earlier in the Book of Exodus, Moses saw and spoke with Jehovah’s angel (Exodus 3:2) who is later called God and Jehovah. This Holy One came in the Name of his Father.
- When Jehovah saw that he went over to look, God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” (Exodus 3:4)
- Then he said: “Do not come any nearer. Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.” (Exodus 3:5)
- Michael, the Archangel of God then tells Moses, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God" (Exodus 3:6)
- Michael is the Voice that was walking in the Garden that Adam and Eve went hiding from. "Later they heard the Voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden." (Genesis 3:8) Whether you call him Voice of Jehovah God or the Word of God, it's the same person.
Jehovah sent Michael his Chief Messenger whom was existing in God's Form and gave him the Name Jesus Christ. (Philippians 2:6-11) The Name he inherited made him better than the angels. (Hebrews 1:2-4)
- The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. (Rev 3:12)
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"Why does that miss the mark? Those disobedient angels did not die when they manifested in the flesh during Noah's Days. Nor did the angels die when taking possession of a human body or when they were cast into the swine. What was a a huge herd of swine doing in Israel anyways?"
"If an angel can manifest in the flesh...or take possession of a human body to control it, then Jehovah transferring Michael's Life Force into Mary's womb in order to provide his means of Salvation is not illogical at all."
In neither of the examples provided is the entire package, so to speak, of soul and spirit separated one from the other.
What is the position concerning a living being comprised of soul and spirit (life-force) when the spirit is no longer present – the WT is adamant that death and non-existence is the result. Additionally, the soul does not have immortality; so, all that the creature was in toto will never again exist according to the WT purview.
In the case of Michael, which is our focus, a separation of the two occurred according to their teaching.
Moreover, identity of a creature is tied to its soul, not the life-force which is defined by the WT as completely impersonal – a life enabler only – even, if for the sake of argument, we allow Michael to not perish, nothing personal, of or about himself, would have been transmitted to Mary's womb.
Either way, as I've stated all along, the WT's teaching that Michael is the enfleshed Jesus is not at all consistent with, nor does it logically follow their own stated view and teaching regarding the soul, spirit (life-force), and death.
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@Pages In neither of the examples provided is the entire package, so to speak, of soul and spirit separated one from the other.
That's correct because if Jehovah REMOVED his Life Force, the soul would cease to exist. The soul is the person or creature. The Spirit is Life. Jehovah has set a time period for his spirit (Life Force) to remain to mankind whether righteous or unrighteous. Soon, very soon the wicked will not have the gift of Jehovah's Life Force to keep on living. This is called Armageddon, only those who proven themselves worthy will keep on living.
If the (life force) is removed, then the being of flesh will die. However, when Jehovah transferred Michael's Life Force, he was transferred so as not to see death.
Once again, I quote the WT:
- "But without that spirit, or life-force, our bodies “die and return to the dust” as the psalmist stated."
- "Whereas the human soul is the living person himself, the spirit is simply the life force that enables that person to be alive. The spirit has no personality, nor can it do the things a person can do. It cannot think, speak, hear, see or feel.
This quote is referring to humans not angels. Humans are Creatures of Flesh and Angels are Creatures of Spirit.
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"If the (life force) is removed, then the being of flesh will die."
"However, when Jehovah transferred Michael's Life Force, he was transferred so as not to see death."
As they stand, both preceding statements are inline with the individual WT teachings on each of these doctrines.
However, the second statement is in complete variance not only with the first statement but also with their published position on soul, spirit, and death. It is an inconsistent application on their part when it comes to Michael.
The "...he was transferred so as not to see death." is taken from, I suspect, Heb. 11:5 regarding Enoch; though once again, Enoch was taken soul and spirit – Michael's soul was separated from the life-force enabling his life.
"This quote is referring to humans not angels. Humans are Creatures of Flesh and Angels are Creatures of Spirit."
I believe the WT states that all living creatures have souls and spirits regardless of whether the soul/body resides in the material or non-material realm.
Is it now being suggested that there are two sets of WT doctrine on soul, spirit, and death; one set for the material, and another set for the non-material? If so, please direct me to where on the JW.org website I can read the official WT article(s) teaching on this non-material set.
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@Pages I believe the WT states that all living creatures have souls and spirits regardless of whether the soul/body resides in the material or non-material realm.
No. What the Bible teaches that all living creatures are souls regardless of whether in the material or non-material realm.
Notice, when Jesus predicted his death he compared his (life) to a grain of a plant. But Jesus answered them: “The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified. Most truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just one grain; but if it dies, it then bears much fruit. Whoever is fond of his life destroys it, but whoever hates his life in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life" (John 12:23-25)
"For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah. But the one who ignores me harms himself, And those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36) The Hebrew word for himself is actually translated Soul.
@Pages Is it now being suggested that there are two sets of WT doctrine on soul, spirit, and death; one set for the material, and another set for the non-material? If so, please direct me to where on the JW.org website I can read the official WT article(s) teaching on this non-material set.
Jehovah transferred the life force of his beloved Son from heaven into the womb of Mary. Nine months later she gave birth to a baby boy, Jesus. (Luke 2:1-7, 21) In the words of the apostle Paul: “When the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman.” (Galatians 4:4) Likewise, the apostle John acknowledged: “The Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.”—John 1:14.
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"No. What the Bible teaches that all living creatures are souls regardless of whether in the material or non-material realm."
Ah yes, that pesky have ought to have been are in what I wrote and should have read:
I believe the WT states that all living creatures are souls with a spirit/life-force regardless of whether the soul/body resides in the material or non-material realm.
"Jehovah transferred the life force of his beloved Son from heaven into the womb of Mary."
Yes, this is the standard WT belief of that event; yet, there is a great disconnect between this transfer of life-force and their belief on soul, life-force, and death and how the latter doctrine impacts the former.
The soul does not live or exist without a life-force to enable the soul's life. Transfer in general is the movement of something in location or possession. In either case, location or possession, Michael no longer has that which enables his life and existence – a life-force.
The life-force as defined by the WT is an impersonal force which is generic – simply enabling a creature to be alive and devoid of all else. The sum total of who and what a creature is – is found only in the soul.
Stated another way, there is nothing inherent or unique to be found in this life-force itself – Gabriel's life-force is identical to Michael's life-force, a dog's life-force is identical to a cat's life-force, and so on.
When considering all that applies to this life-force transfer from WT doctrine, and subsequently applying it in a consistent and systematic manner, in the end does not provide any viable connection between Michael and Jesus – it simply breaks down and does not exist as they imagine.
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@Pages Ah yes, that pesky have ought to have been are in what I wrote and should have read:
I believe the WT states that all living creatures are souls with a spirit/life-force regardless of whether the soul/body resides in the material or non-material realm.
Yes, there ya go. Correct. 😀
@Pages Stated another way, there is nothing inherent or unique to be found in this life-force itself – Gabriel's life-force is identical to Michael's life-force, a dog's life-force is identical to a cat's life-force, and so on.
Yes, life is life. However the soul, the living creature, whether, angel, human, or animal have unique characteristics individually. For instance the child that was to be born was to be named Immanuel.
- Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)
Gabriel who gives witness to Daniel about Michael the Archangel. Also gives witness to Mary to name this child, a son that she will soon conceive, JESUS. So Jehovah does allow some leeway how angels perform their duties. Another example how of angels have certain characteristics is when Jehovah was conveying a meeting and asked how the angel would perform a certain assignment before choosing a certain angel.
- Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool Aʹhab, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. (1 Kings 22:20)
- Then a spirit came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ (1 Kings 22:21)
- He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’ (1 Kings 22:22)
So we see that angels have individual personalities. In the same manner humans and even animals may have certain personalities that we might be attracted too. It's easy to sense this if you have or had a pet.
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Yes, there ya go. Correct. 😀
Thanks!
"Yes, life is life. However the soul, the living creature, whether, angel, human, or animal have unique characteristics individually. For instance the child that was to be born was to be named Immanuel."
Exactly the point I have expressed throughout this conversation. And, in the application of this with regard to Michael; nothing inherent to Michael's being was communicated in the transfer of the life-force to Mary's womb.
The resulting outcome of the above is two-fold:
1) that any attempt of connecting Michael to Jesus in this event either ontologically or in person-hood by the WT is effectively dissolved by their own stated doctrine.
2) that upon the transfer of this life enabling force into Mary's womb, Michael ceases to have life and existence as per the consistent application of WT doctrine.
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No. When Jehovah transferred Michael's Life Force into Mary's fertile womb by the means of Holy Spirit, Mary conceived that life at conception. This miraculously conception was truly marvelous and wonderful and is hidden from the many.
"Turn in your own Bible to Luke 1:35 and you will find the statement that “what shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”—not God himself.—Dy.
Nonetheless, this was a truly miraculous birth, God’s Son becoming a human, and it was accomplished in an extraordinary way, a virgin being used as his earthly mother. “Now all this came to pass that there might be fulfilled what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, ‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son; and they shall call his name Emmanuel.’”—Matt. 1:22, 23, Cath. Confrat." Quote taken from Watchtower
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"No. When Jehovah transferred Michael's Life Force into Mary's fertile womb by the means of Holy Spirit, Mary conceived that life at conception. This miraculously conception was truly marvelous and wonderful and is hidden from the many."
When this transfer took place, did Michael cease to exist? If not, why not?
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When I mention conception, I am referring to a fertilized egg. His Life-force activated the process by Holy Spirit. So the answer is No. Michael did not cease during this process, but he no longer had any memory of his past until the proper time. He became a "perfect human". Was taught by his mother and step-father and like other children, probably asked a lot of questions.
- And the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued upon him. (Luke 2:40)
- And when he was 12 years old, they went up according to the custom of the festival. (Luke 2:42)
- And Jesus went on progressing in wisdom and in physical growth and in favor with God and men. (Luke 2:52)
Jesus at this point in time still did not know of his pre-human existence. All that Mary knew is that she conceived a child miraculously, one who would be a Savior for Israel. But Joseph doubted the pregnancy but followed through after being visited by an angel.
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"When I mention conception, I am referring to a fertilized egg. His Life-force activated the process by Holy Spirit. So the answer is No. Michael did not cease during this process, but he no longer had any memory of his past until the proper time. He became a "perfect human". Was taught by his mother and step-father and like other children, probably asked a lot of questions."
Thank you.
This ceasing of Michael's memory mentioned above is in lock-step with the WT's position on death.
A few statements from JW.org:
- "At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain."
- "When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit."
- "We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone."
Given that soul and life-force are two separate and independent parts making up any living creature; and given the impersonal nature of the life-force, the electrical spark of life, this would resolve in nothing pertaining to Michael having been transferred into the womb.
I believe it was just a couple of posts ago that you affirmed that "life is life" and the generic status of the spirit/life-force.
The WT assertion, referring to Michael, that "He became a "perfect human"." is in complete contradiction to their very own position on death as witnessed above.
Now, were Michael to become this "perfect human" born of a virgin as the WT claims, and in the manner they claim, though demonstrated to be contrary to their doctrine, this requires a new soul that has no connection whatsoever to the original heavenly soul once known as Michael.
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@Pages This ceasing of Michael's memory mentioned above is in lock-step with the WT's position on death.
A few statements from JW.org:
"At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain."
"When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit."
"We are mortal and do not survive the death of our body. The life we enjoy is like the flame of a candle. When the flame is put out, it does not go anywhere. It is simply gone."
Yes, but this information I sent you is about what humans go through. We are not angels. And there is no record of an angel dying yet. This process about how Michael became a man, is unique and is the only one. It's not a pattern.
@Pages Given that soul and life-force are two separate and independent parts making up any living creature; and given the impersonal nature of the life-force, the electrical spark of life, this would resolve in nothing pertaining to Michael having been transferred into the womb.
Correct again, but later recall this scripture. So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me." (Hebrews 10:5) So what happens at conception? The egg is fertilized, the one cell is active and alive. It's the only time that the Wonderful Creator of Heaven and earth can make something by Multiplying through Division. The two cells become four, and the four cells become eight and DNA begins directing cells of going to specific areas within the egg to form a body.
Jesus had a pre-human existence but he and his earthly family were unaware of it. So was there a time that Jehovah would let his Son know who he was? Yes! Notice the prophecies about the Messiah, it was somewhat vague, a child, a son, a righteous branch from David. This was done by design to hide the Messiah from Satan and his demons. As a little baby, he needed care, food, needed to be washed and bathed and so on. Even though Joseph and Mary told him that an angel approached them about his birth and aided in protecting him, there must have been a time he read Isaiah 7:7 LXX and even Isaiah 9:6 LXX.
Luke 2:42 And when he was 12 years old, they went up according to the custom of the festival.j 43 When the days of the festival were over and they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, and his parents did not notice it. 44 Assuming that he was in the group traveling together, they went a day’s journey and then began to search for him among the relatives and acquaintances. 45 But not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem and made a diligent search for him. 46 Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions. 47 But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers.k 48 Now when his parents saw him, they were astounded, and his mother said to him: “Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you.” 49 But he said to them: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?”l 50 However, they did not understand what he was saying to them.51 Then he went down with them and returned to Nazʹa·reth, and he continued subject to them.m Also, his mother carefully kept all these sayings in her heart.n 52 And Jesus went on progressing in wisdom and in physical growth and in favor with God and men.
So would you like to know when Jesus received the memory of his Pre-Human Existence?
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"Yes, but this information I sent you is about what humans go through."
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement as the information being referenced was not sent to me.
"We are not angels. And there is no record of an angel dying yet. This process about how Michael became a man, is unique and is the only one. It's not a pattern."
A couple of points on the above:
I agree "We are not angels"; but then, I haven't made any claim to that effect.
In the first section of Genesis chapter 6 the sons of God, embodied angelic beings, are referenced and acknowledged; and subsequently would have perished in the flood (Gen. 7:21-23).
Overall, I believe we've had this discussion previously and the result of that conversation was all living creatures, physical or non-physical, are soul and spirit – entirely mortal.
As stated numerous times in this discussion the WT makes no distinction for any class of living creature to have exemption from their doctrine. They are, in all accounts, absolutely clear as to the resulting state when no longer possessing a life-force.
It may be claimed that the WT doctrine speaks to only humans; but, that is the logical target audience for their communication of views and ministry.
It is quite simply unreasonable and special pleading to argue that non-physical creatures might be somehow excluded from their stated doctrine since they are not addressed directly in communication.
So I'll ask you: is it your contention that an angel would continue to live and exist if the life-force was removed from them?
"Correct again, but later recall this scripture. So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me." (Hebrews 10:5)
Yes, that is what the text states though not specifically relevant to the event of Michael's loss of impersonal life-force and consequent death being discussed. Unless, it is meant that in receiving this new body the old body has died and ceased to exist as the WT's view on resurrection.
"So would you like to know when Jesus received the memory of his Pre-Human Existence?"
Certainly
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@Pages In the first section of Genesis chapter 6 the sons of God, embodied angelic beings, are referenced and acknowledged; and subsequently would have perished in the flood (Gen. 7:21-23).
The angels that manifested in human form did not die or loose their life force. When the flood came the angels de-materialized did not die or loose their life force but went back to Heaven.
- Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people.(2 Peter 2:4-5)
- The sons of the gods (angels) who were called Nephilim perished.
@Pages Overall, I believe we've had this discussion previously and the result of that conversation was all living creatures, physical or non-physical, are soul and spirit – entirely mortal.
Since angels are spirits they have a spiritual body. However they are invisible sprit creatures. Michael, the angel of God's Presence manifested in a pillar of cloud in day and in a pillar of fire at night. The same angel that appeared in this form at Exodus 13:22 is the same angel that appeared at Rev 1:13-16 saying "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave." (Rev 1:17-18)
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"The angels that manifested in human form did not die or loose their life force. When the flood came the angels de-materialized did not die or loose their life force but went back to Heaven."
It is stated that "every living thing", all existence, was wiped out in its entirety – excluding Noah, Noah's family, and those creatures aboard the ark (Gen. 7:23).
Additionally, 2Pet. 2:4 makes reference to those particular angels and their end – hell; and the WT considers hell as being the grave – and who inhabits the grave, only those who have died and no longer exist.
From the JW.org website is the following:
- "Hell (“Sheol” and “Hades” in the Bible’s original languages) is simply the grave,"
Is hell an eternal place of suffering?:
- "The original words translated as “hell” in some older Bible translations (Hebrew, “Sheol”; Greek, “Hades”) basically refer to “the Grave,” that is, the common grave of mankind. The Bible shows that people in “the Grave” are in a state of nonexistence."
I don't believe scripture, or the WT, provide any support for the claim made in your statement.
"Since angels are spirits they have a spiritual body. However they are invisible sprit creatures. Michael, the angel of God's Presence manifested in a pillar of cloud in day and in a pillar of fire at night."
The state of one's visibility is without relevance to Michael's existence regarding what is being discussed.
I didn't receive an answer to the question in my previous post, so, here it it again.
Is it your contention that an angel would continue to live and exist if the life-force was removed from them?
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Hell is not in this scripture, but rather the scripture is talking about Tartarus. It's not a place, but a condition of dense spiritual darkness to be reserved for judgment. If the angels are reserved for judgement then their life-force has not been removed as of yet. That time comes after Christ Millennial Reign of 1,000 years.
After Jesus was resurrected by Jehovah as a life giving angel, he preached to such ones in Heaven. "For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)
And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
- THE apostle Peter wrote about the resurrected Jesus Christ’s preaching to the “spirits in prison.” (1 Pet. 3:19) Were these “spirits” persons who had died? Or, were they spirit persons that had been put under some restraint?
- Angels are beings who have greater power and ability than humans. (2 Peter 2:11) They exist in heaven, or the spirit realm, which is a level of existence higher than the physical universe. (1 Kings 8:27; John 6:38) Thus, they are also referred to as spirits.—1 Kings 22:21; Psalm 18:10.
@Brother Rando "Since angels are spirits they have a spiritual body. However they are invisible sprit creatures. Michael, the angel of God's Presence manifested in a pillar of cloud in day and in a pillar of fire at night."
- The angel at Exodus 23:20-21 not only Saved the Nation of Israel but later destroyed them for refusing to obey his voice. "Although you are fully aware of all of this, I want to remind you that Jehovah, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those not showing faith." (Jude 1:5)
- Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)
- Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. (1 Corinthians 10:10)
So this angel who is like God? had the authority to forgive sin or destroy those who have sinned. Even the angels that sinned know this. "What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!” (Mark 1:24)
@Pages Is it your contention that an angel would continue to live and exist if the life-force was removed from them?
There will be a time when the angels that sinned will be destroyed at an appointed time and they will cease to exist by having their life force revoked. That time is not yet.
