The New World Translation: A Trust-worthy "Bible”?

C McC Mc Posts: 4,341
edited October 18 in Apologetics

CD Posters,

As promised in another thread, I would give a closer look into a translation that one of the new posters frequently directs users of these forums. Many times, @BroRando supplied Bible texts lead one to Jehovah's Witnesses Bible entitled, "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." It was written and released in 1950 by members of the Society. Many in the religious and scholarly community deemed it to be a biased translation. It is believed the translators have added and altered many Bible texts to agree with the denominational teachings. Can it be verified or denied?

I stand to be corrected that in 1969, "The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures" came on the scene. It used the Greek text revised by Westcott and Hort and has the New World translation in its margin. This reveals many errors and contradictions, including words added and other mistranslations. The Greek text used is also questionable.

What's the quality of this "Bible"? Is it accurate to the Greek and Hebrew texts that other Bibles and Translations are based? What value does it bring to the religious world or the study of theology? Who were the men that compiled the NWT? Were they efficient proficient in the languages of Greek and Hebrew?

Eusebius, a follower of Origen, rejected the deity of Christ and claimed that Christ was a created being. A cursory reading of John 1:1 in the NWT appeared to have continued the "Arian heresy." Is it just the NWT that maintains the Arian heresy that says Jesus is not God and that God is a pantheistic God, a God in everything?

Can we make a sober comparison of the NWT and other translations? After doing such, would you recommend its usage for mature biblical studies? CM

PS. May I encourage all to limit your comments to the NWT Text and its development to keep us focused?

Post edited by C Mc on
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Comments

  • "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." It was written and released in1950 by members of the Society. Many in the religious and scholarly community deemed it to be a biased translation. It is believed the translators have added and altered many Bible texts to agree with the denominational teachings. Can it be verified or denied?

    Same is true about other translations .... some modern day language versions are more of a paraphrasing in places than they are translations.

    What's the quality of this "Bible"? Is it accurate to the Greek and Hebrew texts that other Bibles and Translations are based? What value does it bring to the religious world or the study of theology? Who were the men that compiled the NWT? Were they efficient proficient in the languages of Greek and Hebrew?

    See above ... various translations have various approaches to how they translate and what they attempt to achieve ... easy readability, strict word by word of source language, convey sense rather than other language details, etc. One should be aware that in ALL CASES, a translation ALWAYS reflects the understanding of the translator(s) and will thus be somewhat biased, more or less according to the level of dependence of the translator on the group, church, publisher, etc. who has ordered the translation.

    Can we make a sober comparison of the NWT and other translations? After doing such, would you recommend its usage for mature biblical studies? CM

    Any translation to which one has access may be helpful for a sober personal study of the Scriptures. ALL translations pursue certain aims in what they would like a user to get from their translation. Unfortunately, many Christians completely rely on a particular translation which some almost deem to be THE WORD OF GOD, and they go as far as demonizing any other translation ... a grave mistake, or perhaps a well brain-washed follower of a denomination or preacher advertising such false ideas.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496

    Well... if a passerby should come across this website, the reader should beware the OP's personal bias and prejudices.

    God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his Name.​—Heb. 6:10.

    Let your words always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should answer each person. (Colossian 4:6)


    Therefore, I choose to respond with my Head held high and my spirit to be strong, mild, and at peace.

    “The Bible and the Divine Name”


  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496

    Some study material that proves that God's Name was actually in the Chrsitian Greek Scriptures.

    Translations and Reference Works Supporting the Use of the Divine Name in the “New Testament”


    Below is a partial listing of Bible translations and reference works that have used some form of the divine name (or some other way of indicating that the divine name is referred to) in what is commonly called the New Testament.

    Can all these resources be Wrong?  Only 75 of the 244 Refrences listed. See Translations and Reference Works Supporting the Use of the Divine Name in the “New Testament”


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    KEY:

    • HEBREW translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures
    • ENGLISH translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures
    • OTHER LANGUAGE translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures
    • REFERENCE works

    J1

    בשורת מתי, Euangelium Hebraicum Matthæi (Gospel of Matthew, in Hebrew), edited by Jean du Tillet, with a Latin translation by Jean Mercier, Paris, 1555. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה or an abbreviated form of the Tetragrammaton in the main text of some verses. 

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    J2

    Even Bohan (אבן בוחן, “Tested Stone; Touchstone”), by Shem-Tob ben Isaac Ibn Shaprut, Spain, c. 1385. This work includes a Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew. Edition: Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, by George Howard, Macon, GA, U.S.A., 1995. In his explanation under the heading “The Divine Name,” Howard states: “Shem-Tob’s Hebrew Matthew employs the Divine Name, symbolized by ה״ (apparently an abbreviation for השם, ‘the Name’).” 

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    J3

    תורת המשיח, Euangelium secundum Matthæum in lingua hebraica, cum versione latina (Gospel of Matthew, in Hebrew and Latin), by Sebastian Münster, Basel, Switzerland, 1537. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    תורת המשיח, Euangelium secundum Matthæum in lingua hebraica . . . Vnà cum Epistola D. Pauli ad Hebræos, Hebraicè & Latinè (Gospel of Matthew and Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, in Hebrew and Latin), by Sebastian Münster, Basel, 1557. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה or an abbreviated form of the Tetragrammaton in the main text of some verses. 

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    J4

    תורת המשיח . . . כפי מתי המבשר, Sanctum Domini nostri Iesu Christi Hebraicum Euangelium secundum Matthæum (Gospel of Matthew, in Hebrew), edited by Johannes Quinquarboreus, Paris, 1551. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    J5

    בשורת הקרואות שנה בשנה בשבתות ובחגי, Euangelia anniuersaria, quae Dominicis diebus & in Sanctorum festis leguntur, Hebraicè conuersa (Liturgical Gospels, in Hebrew), by Fridericus Petri, Antwerp, 1581. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    J6

    Euangelia anniuersaria Dominicorum et Festorum dierum, Germanicè, Latinè, Graecè, & Ebraicè (Liturgical Gospels, in German, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew), by Johannes Clajus, Leipzig, 1576. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    J7

    Novum Testamentum Dn̄i: Nr̄i: Iesu Christi, Syriacè, Ebraicè, Græcè, Latinè, Germanicè, Bohemicè, Italicè, Hispanicè, Gallicè, Anglicè, Danicè, Polonicè (New Testament in 12 languages, including Hebrew), by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599-1600. This edition is often referred to as the Nuremberg Polyglot New Testament. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J8

    תורת יהוה חדשה, Lex Dei summi nova; Atque hæc est, Novum Domini nostri Jesu Christi Testamentum Sacro-Sanctum (New Testament, in Hebrew), by William Robertson, London, 1661. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J9

    ארבעה אבני הגיליונים מהתורה החדשה, Quatuor Euangelia Noui Testamenti Ex Latino in Hebraicum (The Four Gospels, in Hebrew and Latin), by Giovanni Battista Jona, Rome, 1668. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J10

    The New Testament . . . , in Hebrew and English, in Three Volumes, containing the Gospel of Matthew to First Corinthians, by Richard Caddick, London, 1798-1805. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J11

    ברית חדשה על פי משיח (New Testament, in Hebrew), by Thomas Fry and others, London, 1817. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J12

    ספר הברית החדשה (New Testament, in Hebrew), by William Greenfield, London, 1831. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J13

    הברית החדשה (New Testament, The Gospels in Hebrew), by Thomas Yeates, London, 1805. As reproduced by Jean Carmignac in Traductions hebraïques des Evangiles, Vols. 2-3, Turnhout, Belgium, 1982; from the manuscript Add MS 11659 in the British Library, London. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J14

    ספר ברית חדשה על פי המשיח (New Testament, in Hebrew), by Alexander McCaul, Michael Solomon Alexander, Johann Christian Reichardt, and Stanislaus Hoga, London, 1838. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J15

    ספר בשורה טובה על פי המבשר לוקס (Gospel of Luke, in Hebrew), by Johann Heinrich Raphael Biesenthal, Berlin, 1851. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    ספר פעלי השליחים (Acts of Apostles, in Hebrew), by Johann Heinrich Raphael Biesenthal, Berlin, 1867. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    אגרת אל הרומים (Paul’s Letter to the Romans, in Hebrew), by Johann Heinrich Raphael Biesenthal, Berlin, 1855. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    אגרת אל העברים (Paul’s Letter to the Hebrews, in Hebrew), by Johann Heinrich Raphael Biesenthal, Berlin, 1857. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses. 

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    J16

    הברית החדשה על פי המשיח עם נקודות וטעמים (New Testament, in Hebrew), revised by Johann Christian Reichardt and Johann Heinrich Raphael Biesenthal, London, 1866. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J17

    ספרי הברית החדשה (New Testament, in Hebrew), by Franz Delitzsch, Leipzig, 1877. This translation uses יהוה or an abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton in the main text of various verses. In 1892, Delitzsch’s 11th edition replaced the abbreviated form with יהוה, which is also used in later editions. 

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    J18

    הברית החדשה (New Testament, in Hebrew), by Isaac Salkinson and Christian D. Ginsburg, Vienna, Austria, 1886. This translation uses יהוה in the main text in various verses. 

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    J19

    הבשורה הטובה על־פי יוחנ (Gospel of John, in Hebrew), by Moshe I. Ben Maeir, Denver, CO, U.S.A., 1957. This translation uses יהוה or an abbreviated form of the Tetragrammaton in the main text of some verses. 

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    J20

    A Concordance to the Greek Testament, by William F. Moulton and Alfred S. Geden, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1897. In the scripture references under the entries ΘΕΟ΄Σ (The·osʹ) and ΚΥ΄ΡΙΟΣ (Kyʹri·os), this work shows parts of the Hebrew text containing the Tetragrammaton (יהוה) to which the Greek text refers or from which it makes a quotation. 

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    J21

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Greek-English interlinear), by Benjamin Wilson, New York, 1864. The translation into English in the right-hand column uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses. 

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    J22

    ספרי הברית החדשה (New Testament, in Hebrew), by United Bible Societies, Jerusalem, 1976. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J23

    הברית החדשה (New Testament, in Hebrew), by Yohanan Bauchet and David Kinneret (Arteaga), Rome, 1975. This translation uses יהוה or an abbreviated form of the Tetragrammaton in the main text of various verses. 

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    J24

    A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (pseudonym for Frederick Parker), Sixth Edition, London, 1863. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J25

    St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by William Gunion Rutherford, London, 1900. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses. 

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    J26

    Psalterium Hebraicum (Bible book of Psalms and Gospel of Matthew 1:1–3:6, in Hebrew), by Anton Margaritha, Leipzig, 1533. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of some verses in both Bible books. 

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    J27

    Die heilige Schrift des neuen Testaments (New Testament, in German), by Dominik von Brentano, Kempten, Germany, 1790-1791. This translation uses “Jehova” or “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses or in explanatory commentaries and paraphrases. 

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    J28

    ספרי הברית החדשה (New Testament, in Hebrew), as appearing in The New Covenant Commonly Called the New Testament—Peshitta Aramaic Text With a Hebrew Translation, by The Bible Society, Jerusalem, 1986. The translation into Hebrew uses יהוה in the main text of various verses. 

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    J29

    The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English (An American Translation of the Aramaic New Testament), by Glenn David Bauscher, Seventh Edition, Australia, 2012. This translation uses “THE LORD JEHOVAH” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J30

    Aramaic English New Testament, by Andrew Gabriel Roth, Third Edition, U.S.A., 2008. This translation uses “Master YHWH” or “YHWH” in the main text of various verses or in the footnotes. 

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    J31

    Hebraic Roots Bible with Study notes, Word of Truth Publications, Carteret, NJ, U.S.A., 2012. This translation uses “YAHWEH” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J32

    The Holy Name Bible (formerly known as The Sacred Name New Testament), revised by Angelo Benedetto Traina and The Scripture Research Association, Inc., U.S.A., 2012 reprint. This translation uses “Yahweh” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J33

    The Christian’s Bible—New Testament, by George Newton LeFevre, Strasburg, PA, U.S.A., 1928. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J34

    The Idiomatic Translation of the New Testament, by William Graham MacDonald, 2009 electronic version. This translation uses “Yahveh” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J35

    Nkand’a Nzambi i sia vo Luwawanu Luankulu Y’olu Luampa (The Bible, in Kikongo), by George Ronald Robinson Cameron and others, 1926; reprinted by United Bible Societies, Nairobi, Kenya, 1987. This translation uses “Yave” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J36

    Bibel Barita Na Uli Hata Batak-Toba siganup ari (The Bible, in Batak-Toba), Lembaga Alkitab Indonesia, Jakarta, Indonesia, 1989. This translation uses “Jahowa” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J37

    Arorutiet ne Leel ne bo: Kiptaiyandennyo Jesu Kristo Yetindennyo (New Testament, in Kalenjin), by Frances J. Mumford and others, Nairobi, Kenya, 1968. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J38

    Ekonejeu Kabesi ni Dokuj Iesu Keriso (New Testament, in Nengone), by Stephen M. Creagh and John Jones, London, 1870. This translation uses “Iehova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J39

    Jesu Keriso ve Evanelia Toaripi uri (The Four Gospels, in Toaripi), by John Henry Holmes, London, 1902. This translation uses “Jehova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J40

    Edisana Ñwed Abasi Ibom (The Bible, in Efik), reprinted by the National Bible Society of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1949. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J41

    Testament Sefa an amam Samol o Rȧn Amanau Jisos Kraist: auili jonai kapas an re kris uili nanai kapas an mortlok (New Testament, in Mortlockese), by Robert W. Logan, New York, 1883. This translation uses “Jioua” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J42

    Am-bóšra tráka Yī́sua Masī́a mo̱ ama-gbal ma Mátaī, o̱-sōm and Ama-Lémrane̱ ama-Fu ma o̱-Rábbu de̱ o̱-Fū́tia-ka-su Yī́sua Masī́a (New Testament, in Temne), by Christian Friedrich Schlenker, London, 1865-1868. This translation uses “Yehṓfa” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J43

    Testament Vau ki nawota anigida go tea maumaupauri Yesu Kristo (New Testament, in Nguna-Tongoa), by Oscar Michelsen and Peter Milne, London, 1912. This translation uses “Yehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J44

    Wusku Wuttestamentum Nul-Lordumun Jesus Christ (New Testament, in the Algonquin language of Massachusetts), by John Eliot, Cambridge, MA, U.S.A., 1661. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J45

    Matīyū: Ku Nam Navosavos ugi (Gospel of Matthew, in Eromanga), by George Nicol Gordon and James Douglas Gordon, London, 1869. This translation uses “Iehōva” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J46

    La Bible (The Bible, in French), by André Chouraqui, Tournai, Belgium, 1985. This translation uses a combination of “IHVH” and “adonai” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J47

    Biblia Peshitta en Español, Traducción de los Antiguos Manuscritos Arameos (The Peshitta Bible, in Spanish), Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville, TN, U.S.A., 2006. This translation uses “Yahweh” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J48

    Pin chitokaka pi okchalinchi Chisvs Klaist in testament himona, chahta anumpa atoshowa hoke (New Testament, in Choctaw), by Alfred Wright and Cyrus Byington, New York, 1848. This translation uses “Chihowa” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J49

    Bosakú-w’ólótsi wa Yesu Masiya boki Matayo la Malako o kótaka and Bosakú-w’ólótsi wa Yesu Masiya boki Luka o kótaka (Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, in Lomóngo), by Edward Algernon Ruskin and Lily Ruskin, Congo Balolo Mission, Upper Congo, 1905. This translation uses “Yawe” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J50

    Nalologena wo se Yesu Kristo Kome Mataio (Gospel of Matthew, in Tasiko, Epi), by Oscar Michelsen, London, 1892. This translation uses “Yehova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J51

    The Restored New Testament, by Willis Barnstone, New York, 2009. This translation uses “Yahweh” in some verses. A footnote at Matthew 1:20 comments on the expression “an angel of the Lord”: “From the Greek . . . (angelos kyriou), from the Hebrew . . . (malakh yahweh) . . . A literal rendering would be Yahweh’s malakh or ‘messenger.’” In the main text of Matthew 28:2, this translation reads: “An angel of Yahweh.” 

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    J52

    Messianic Jewish Shared Heritage Bible, by The Messianic Jewish Family Bible Project, Shippensburg, PA, U.S.A., 2012. This Bible uses “ADONAI” in the main text of various verses in the Christian Greek Scriptures. The glossary on page 1530 explains: “ADONAI (יהוה)—Hebrew for ‘LORD.’ When written in small capitals, it refers to God’s personal name YHWH as given in the Hebrew Bible. This personal name is God’s ‘covenant name,’ used when God is relating to the Jewish people in an intimate way.” 

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    J53

    The Messages of Jesus According to the Synoptists (The Discourses of Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke), by Thomas Cuming Hall, New York, 1901. This paraphrase uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J54

    Bibel Ñaran aen Gott, Ñarana Testament Õbwe me Testament Etsimeduw Õañan (The Bible, in Nauru), by Philip Adam Delaporte, New York, 1918; reprinted by The Bible Society in the South Pacific, Suva, Fiji, 2005. This translation uses “Jehova” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J55

    Embimbiliya Li Kola (The Bible, in Umbundu), by Merlin W. Ennis and others, Luanda, Angola, 1963. This translation uses “Yehova” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J56

    Ke Kauoha Hou a Ko Kakou Haku e Ola’i, a Iesu Kristo (New Testament, in Hawaiian), American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, Oahu, Hawaii, 1835. This translation uses “Iehova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J57

    Te Nu Tetemanti, ae ana Taeka Ara Uea ao ara Tia Kamaiu are Iesu Kristo, ae Kaetaki man Taetaen Erene (New Testament, in Kiribati [Gilbertese]), by Hiram Bingham II, New York, 1901. This translation uses “Iehova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J58

    Dal Co Mu Biale Saint Luke Terhu (Gospel of Luke, in Lonwolwol [Fanting]), by Robert Lamb, Dunedin, New Zealand, 1899. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J59

    Intas-Etipup Mat u Iesu Kristo, Natimarid Uja, im Natimi Imyiatamaig Caija (New Testament, in Aneityum), by John Geddie, John Inglis, and others, London, 1863. This translation uses “Ihova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J60

    New Testament (in Cherokee), revised by Charles Cutler Torrey, New York, 1860. This translation uses “Yihowa” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J61

    Ntestamente Yipia ya Nkambo Wetu ni Mupurushi Yesu Kristu (New Testament, in Chiluva), by Daniel Crawford, Livingstonia, Malawi, 1904. This translation uses “Yehova” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J62

    Injili Mar Mathayo (Gospel of Matthew, in Dholuo), by A. A. Carscallen, London, 1914. This translation uses “Yawe” in the main text of at least one verse. 

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    J63

    The Gospels of Matthew, and of Mark, Newly Rendered Into English; With Notes on the Greek Text, by Lancelot Shadwell, London, 1861. This translation uses “JEHOVAH” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J64

    A Liberal Translation of the New Testament, by Edward Harwood, London, 1768. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J65

    The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, revised by Missionary Dispensary Bible Research, Buena Park, CA, U.S.A., 1970. This translation uses “YAHVAH” in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J66

    The Scriptures, by the Institute for Scripture Research, Third Edition, South Africa, 2010. This translation uses יהוה in the main text of various verses, both in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian Greek Scriptures. 

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    J67

    The New Testament Letters—Prefaced and Paraphrased, by John William Charles Wand, Melbourne, Australia, 1944. This paraphrase uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses. 

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    J68

    The Messages of Paul (Arranged in Historical Order, Analyzed, and Freely Rendered in Paraphrase, with Introductions), by George Barker Stevens, New York, 1900. This paraphrase uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses. 

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    J69

    The Epistle to the Hebrews with some interpretative suggestions, by Wilfrid Henry Isaacs, London, 1933. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses. 

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    J70

    The Apocalypse: A Revised Version in English, of the Revelation with Notes, Historical and Explanatory, by Edward Grimes, Newport-on-Usk, United Kingdom, 1891. This translation uses “Yahweh” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J71

    The New Testament; Being the English Only of the Greek and English Testament, by Abner Kneeland, Philadelphia, PA, U.S.A., 1823. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J72

    The Gospel of the Hellenists, by Benjamin Wisner Bacon and edited by Carl H. Kraeling, New York, 1933. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses. 

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    J73

    The Family Expositor: or, A Paraphrase and Version of the New Testament; with Critical Notes, and a Practical Improvement of Each Section, by Philip Doddridge, London, 1739-1756. This paraphrase uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J74

    The Modern American Bible—The Books of the Bible in Modern American Form and Phrase, With Notes and Introduction, by Frank Schell Ballentine, New York, 1899-1901. This translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures uses “Jehovah” in the main text of various verses. 

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    J75

    The Guide to Immortality; or, Memoirs of the Life and Doctrine of Christ, by the Four Evangelists, by Robert Fellowes, London, 1804. This translation uses “Jehovah” in the main text of some verses or in the footnotes. 

  • So what is the big deal if I know that in some verses in some translations the translators used the name JHVH, YHWH, Jehovaj, Jahwe (or even the original Hebrew letters?

    Many places where the text speaks of NAME in connection with God, the point is not even about the exact name "Jehovah, Jahwe, etc", but the term "name" by figure of speech metonymy refers to the person Himself. "Hallowed be your name" emphasizes "Hallowed be YOU" (the One Who carries that name, not just the name itself). Or expressions of something being done "in your name" means something is to be done at that person's command or as representative of that person. Has nothing to do with the actual name and if it is spelled correctly or pronounced correctly, etc.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,341

    @BroRando,

    This is just a smoke screen of excess. This is a straw man of a post. Look closer at the OP. CM

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496


    You can make an arguement against anyone having names then. If names have no value then why name them? If names are of no value, why name cities, countries, or states? Why name the books of the Bible? Names are used to help identify someone or something. Especially something this is to be done in someone's name.

    Removing somone's name is an act of disrespect. This begs the question, who would want to remove God's Holy and Sacred Name from the Bible? “Hallowed Be Your Name”​—What Name?

    Quote: "Of course, today most people simply refer to the divine being as God, Lord or even the Almighty, but these are merely titles much in the same way as a person might be addressed as Mr or Sir rather than by their personal name.

    So how do we know that God’s name is Jehovah? Well you may be surprised to learn that the Tetragrammaton appears nearly 7,000 times in the original Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). However, in most modern translations of the Bible, the divine name has been replaced by the word LORD in capital letters. This is, apparently, in deference to a long-standing Jewish tradition, or superstition, possibly based on their rendering of Exodus 20:7 which reads: ‘Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain’ (King James Version). But for whatever reason it was decided that the divine name was so sacred that it should never be spoken out loud, and over time the way in which the name was properly pronounced came to be forgotten. And although they never actually removed God’s name from their holy writings, they did later insert vowel signs against the letters to remind the reader that they should pronounce the name as ‘Adonai’ instead, which means ‘the Lord’.

    In many translations, even where the divine name has been substituted, it does often appear at Psalm 83:18. In this case, to do anything otherwise would render the verse nonsensical. According to the King James Version of the Bible, for example, the verse reads: ‘That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth’.

    A number of other modern translations, however, have decided to remain more true to the original writings by including God’s name wherever it appears in the original Hebrew, and one example is the 1966 Catholic Jerusalem Bible which faithfully renders the divine name as Yahweh throughout the Old Testament. However, a rather strange thing happened in 2008 when a directive was issued from the Vatican stating that the name of God, as revealed in the Tetragrammaton YHWH, was no longer to be pronounced in Catholic liturgy or in music. It further stated that Catholics at worship should neither sing nor pronounce the name of God as Yahweh. Also from this time the use of the name Yahweh was to be dropped from all future translations of Catholic Bibles."End of Quote.

    Taken from: https://www.wivenhoehistory.org.uk/content/topics/places-buildings/churches-in-wivenhoe/st-marys-church/divine-name-display-st-marys-church-wivenhoe#commentsform

    Again, a question arises, why would a religion that claims to be Christian burn people at the stake who wanted to translate the Bible into common languages for people to read?


    Jeremiah 23:27

    They intend to make my people forget My Name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My Name because of Baʹal.

  • Jeremiah 23:27

    They intend to make my people forget My Name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My Name because of Baʹal.

    The problem was that "They intend to make my people forget My name (= forget ME, their GOD), not just a name.

    If people dishonor someone's name, that statement is not about a name as such (as if the name "Jo" was terrible, but the names "Mike, Henry" were fine. The point is not about the name(s) as such, but the word "name" in such statements us used by metonymy for the person (not just their particular name).

    Again, a question arises, why would a religion that claims to be Christian burn people at the stake who wanted to translate the Bible into common languages for people to read?

    Such religion(s) have done so in other cases as well (bot just in a dispute about a particular word or phrase ... persecution followed when folks tried to translate Bible from Latin / Greek, etc. into the common language of the people (German, English, etc.) Why? Perhaps to keep their tied grip and tyrannical power over people? The same reasons perhaps as groups who do their particular translation so their people read that one and not another translation which would lead a reader to a different understanding from their dogmas (plenty of trinity colored translations out there) ?

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,341

    Welcome @Truth to CD!


    blob:https://www.christiandiscourse.net/e989f5ed-72d3-4204-a72c-c84a507a3f02 There was an error displaying this embed.


    I ( @C Mc ), personally, would like to welcome you to Christian Debate. Plenty of categories, as you can see, awaits your choosing. You are at liberty to comment on any of the past or current threads (opened). Or you may start a new one.

    A cursory look shows there are more than adequate threads to leave comments. Some are with many comments and others with none. With its varieties, I am sure these forums are enough to accommodate your interests, satisfy your curiosity, challenge your intellect, and stimulate more significant insights.

    When you have the time, read widely of previous threads if you haven't already. I encourage you to read the entire thread of your interest to contribute that would enrich all. You may respond to as many or as few threads as you like. I look forward to our exchanges. Don't worry; you don't have to agree with everybody. When you disagree, if it's all possible, share a reference or two, or why you disagree and others who share your position (point of view). No, it's not required, but it helps enrich the conversation. You're off to a good start. We respect and appreciate divergent views. I am confident we can all learn from one another and together.

    Feel free to ask any one of us or Chairman Jan, Christian Debate's Lead Administrator questions on usage in the opened forum or by PM (Personal Messages). You are going to enjoy yourself and be blessed. CM

    PS. Would you mind telling us how you found us?

  • TruthTruth Posts: 421

    Chairman? ?? Lead Administrator?

    I found you by Google.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,341

    @Wolfgang said:

    " ... various translations have various approaches to how they translate and what they attempt to achieve ... easy readability, strict word by word of source language, convey sense rather than other language details, etc. One should be aware that in ALL CASES, a translation ALWAYS reflects the understanding of the translator(s) and will thus be somewhat biased, more or less according to the level of dependence of the translator on the group, church, publisher, etc. who has ordered the translation. (emphasis mine).

    Who are the translators of the New World Translation Bible (NWT) of JWs? What are the purposes for its existent? Perhaps,  @BroRando  would be willing to share this with the CD Family since it seems his go-to Bible (reflective in his posts). CM

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496

    I personally knew one of the transalators Personally. He spoke Kione Greek and knew the language. I don't think any of the CD posters can make that claim. Anyways NWT is simple. Take the KJV and add the Strongs Concordance. I gave 75 of the 244 Refrences listed in support of the Divine Name In the NT. See Translations and Reference Works Supporting the Use of the Divine Name in the “New Testament”

    Obviously Chrsitendom rejects God's Divine Name in the NT.

    If you would like to see all the scriptures that used God's Name in the NT... just look up the 400th Annivesary Publication of the KJV.

    Jehovah in the New Testament

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496

    You think we just pulled scripture out of thin air? Take the KJV and add the Strongs Concordance would be a start , however much reasearch from many references have been compiled. Video explains thetideous process and includes tranlations of other Bibles were considered.


  • TruthTruth Posts: 421

    "Jehovah" witnesses? What kind of concoction is this English word Jehovah? The KJB uses it a handful of times and the NWT some 7000 times. Some Catholic frier invented the word, but no one knows why. Yet, an entire cult cabbaged onto the word and built a religion around it.

    Odd.

    Yet, the word has stuck over time, and I do not object to it.

    https://blog.logos.com/jehovah-in-bible/

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496

    Evidently you reject the name JESUS? Jesus when translated means 'Jehovah is Salvation'. There are many Names that refer to Jehovah. Did the Catholic friar invent the name Jesus? What about these other names?

    Elijah -- My God is Jehovah

    • Jehoshaphat -- Jehovah is Judge
    • Jehoiakim -- Jehovah raises up
    • Jehoram -- Jehovah is exalted
    • Jehoiada -- May Jehovah know
    • Jehoiachin -- Jehovah has firmly established
    • Jehoahaz -- Jehovah has taken hold
    • Jehonadab -- Jehovah is Willing
    • Jehohanan -- Jehovah has shown favor
    • Hallelujah -- praise Jah


  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,341

    To repeat:

    Who are the translators of the New World Translation Bible (NWT) of JWs? What are the purposes for its existent? Perhaps,  @BroRando  would be willing to share this with the CD Family since it seems his go-to Bible (reflective in his posts). 

    Can expect a definitive answer?

    @BroRando said:

    "I personally knew one of the transalators Personally. He spoke Kione Greek and knew the language. I don't think any of the CD posters can make that claim..."

    I am not impressed or in awe that you "personally knew one of the translators." What are the names of the translators, and what were their qualifications to translate anything? Were all the men equally proficient in both Hebrew and Greek to translate a Bible? Do the JWs ever acknowledge biases, insertions, flaws, and inconsistencies in translating certain words in the NWT? In this thread, are you peddling the name ("Jehovah") as a detraction and smoke-screen from the OP? Do you,  @BroRando, or the Organization ever acknowledge the things I raised here? What were Greek/Hebrew manuscripts used in producing the NWT?

    If you don't know, don't you think you should? I don't need to tell you, inquiry minds in your Organization are not tolerated long. They are subject to disfellowship and class among the "goats." Peace in your search. CM

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496
    edited November 5

    Other translators took alot of EFFORT to REMOVE God's Name FROM SCRIPTURES. Who would be the one person that would not want God's name in the Bible?? Take alook at Revelation 1:8 where Not only God's Name was removed but "GOD" itself was removed.

    Case and point:

     I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8 KJV No Name and No God...

    Because of the bias of the KJV translators, several things were changed and altered.

    • ONE, God's Name Removed.
    • Two, God was Removed.
    • Three, the LORD was added and then the Captialized Letters of LORD was changed to Lord.

    Rev 1:8 was a quote from the Hebrew scriptues that had God's name in it.  

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8 that was...

    Other translations did keep GOD in the scripture as you can SEE. https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-8.htm

    At first, when the KJV translators removed JEHOVAH GOD, they inserted LORD in its place. But that deception wasn't enough so latter in reversions they changed LORD to Lord to confuse and hide the TRUTH from the reader.

    So now the scripture has now been RESTORED bythe NWT. "I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” (Rev 1:8)

    Jesus Name was never in Rev 1:8..... Deception Exposed!

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 5

    Why was YHWH actually replaced with "Lord"/"LORD" in many or just about all translations??

    Is such a replacement (since "Lord" is NOT a true actual translation) of YHWH not a translation error?? If not, why not??

    This translation problem is compounded upon by folks such as @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus who now take New Testament word like "Lord" and claim it means and is actually YHWH ,,,, ("... Jesus is יהוה Lord ...")

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496
    edited November 5

    KJV translators were trinitarians. So they clouded up the scriptures.

    Elijah in Hebrew text which means My God is Jehovah was changed to Elias in the Greek Text. It wasn't done by accident or by a mistake. It was done by DESIGN to be DECEPTIVE.

    Notice Elijah but God's Name replaced with LORD

    2 Kings 2:1 View whole chapter | See verse in context

    And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

    Now in the New Testament

    And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,583

    @Wolfgang posted:

    Why was YHWH actually replaced with "Lord"/"LORD" in many or just about all translations??

    Is such a replacement (since "Lord" is NOT a true actual translation) of YHWH not a translation error?? If not, why not??

    According to the information I discovered via a simple Google search, the move from YHWH to Lord/LORD in English language translations occurred without conspiracy or nefarious intent. Here are three of the sources I found:

    #1: (NRSV translation team note)

    Careful readers will notice that here and there in the Old Testament the word Lord (or in certain cases God) is printed in capital letters. This represents the traditional manner in English versions of rendering the Divine Name, the ‘Tetragrammaton’ (see the notes on Exodus 3.14, 15), following the precedent of the ancient Greek and Latin translators and the long established practice in the reading of the Hebrew Scriptures in the synagogue. While it is almost if not quite certain that the Name was originally pronounced ‘Yahweh,’ this pronunciation was not indicated when the Masoretes added vowel sounds to the consonantal Hebrew text. To the four consonants YHWH of the Name, which had come to be regarded as too sacred to be pronounced, they attached vowel signs indicating that in its place should be read the Hebrew word Adonai meaning ‘Lord’ (or Elohim meaning ‘God’). Ancient Greek translators employed the word Kyrios (‘Lord’) for the Name. The Vulgate likewise used the Latin word Dominus (‘Lord’). The form ‘Jehovah’ is of late medieval origin; it is a combination of the consonants of the Divine Name and the vowels attached to it by the Masoretes but belonging to an entirely different word. Although the American Standard Version (1901) had used ‘Jehovah’ to render the Tetragrammaton (the sound of Y being represented by J and the sound of W by V, as in Latin), for two reasons the Committees that produced the RSV and the NRSV returned to the more familiar usage of the King James Version. (1) The word ‘Jehovah’ does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew. (2) The use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom the true God had to be distinguished, began to be discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church."


    #2:

    The most common name for the Hebrew God (used more than 6,800 times in the Bible) is typically concealed from the modern reader; virtually all standard translations render YHWH as “the Lord” (often printed Lord) or “the Eternal.”

    In ancient times, the Hebrew scribes wrote only consonants and no vowels, and this name of God has come down to us in this written form. Because the name consists of four consonants, it is frequently referred to as the tetragrammaton or tetragram, meaning “the four-letter word.” We don’t know how YHWH was originally pronounced; the standard pronunciation (and English spelling) today—Yahweh—is a modern conjecture, first suggested in the 16th century by Gilbert Génébrard, professor of Hebrew at the prestigious Collège Royal in Paris.

    Throughout history, Jews have treated this name of God with great reverence, declaring that it is too sacred to be used or spoken frequently.4 In writing, the name appears almost exclusively in biblical texts. The speaking of the name was traditionally restricted to priests worshiping at the Jerusalem Temple; after the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 C.E., Jews ceased to utter this name altogether (which is why the original pronunciation of the name was lost). When scripture is read aloud in the synagogue today, the more generic term Adonai is used in place of YHWH. Some scholars follow Jewish tradition and refrain from pronouncing the divine name out of religious respect and so prefer to write YHWH rather than Yahweh.

    There is one place in modern English translations where Yahweh or YHWH (or, in the KJV, Jehovah [see entry, above]) is not translated: In Exodus 6:3, in which God reveals his name to Moses: “I am the Lord [YHWH—here it is translated]: I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob by the name of God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by my name Yahweh [YHWH—here it is not] did not make myself known to them” (Exodus 6:2-3).

    This passage suggests Yahweh is a later name than El Shaddai (see entry above), but we do not know when the divine name Yahweh was introduced into Hebrew religion. The name appears in the Moabite inscription of King Mesha (850-830 B.C.E.), the Khirbet el-Qôm burial inscription (eighth century B.C.E.), and the Kuntillet Ajrud inscriptions (around 800 B.C.E.).

    Arguing that biblical names generally have a discernible meaning, scholars have tried to establish what YHWH means. Based on the etymology, scholars have suggested “He Is” (which can be said of any deity), “He Causes to Be” (said of the Creator) or “He Blows” (a reference to Yahweh as storm god)—but none of these have won general acceptance. Others have tried (with more promising results) to determine the meaning based on the context in which the name occurs. Consider the following passage: “I am going to teach them my power and my might, and they shall know that my name is Yahweh” (Jeremiah 16:21). Here Yahweh clearly carries the connotation “the Mighty One”—referring to the one with the power, the supreme ruler or the Lord (see also Exodus 7:5; 1 Kings 20:13 and others). This is why the ancient translators who rendered the Hebrew Bible into Greek in the third century B.C.E. replaced YHWH with “ho kyrios,” or “the Lord.”


    #3:

    The personal divine name YHWH, cryptically referred to in Exodus 3.13, has an interesting history. In the biblical period the Hebrew language was written only with consonants. Vowels were not added until the Common Era (C.E.), when Hebrew was no longer a living language. On the basis of the Greek texts, which use both vowels and consonants, scholars believe that the original pronunciation was “Yah-weh.” Notice the shortened form of the divine name in the exclamation, “Halleluyah” (from the Hebrew hallelu yah, “Praise Yah”).

    Because of its holy character, the name Yahweh was withdrawn from ordinary speech during the period of the Second Temple (about 500 B.C.E. and later). Another Hebrew word—a title, not a personal name—was substituted: Adonai, or “(The) Lord,” a name still used in synagogues. Scholars who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek (the Septuagint) in the third century B.C.E. adopted this synagogue convention and rendered YHWH as (ho) kurios, “(the) Lord.” From this Greek translation the practice was carried over into the New Testament.

    The word “Jehovah” is an artificial form that arose from the combination of the consonants YHWH with the vowels of Adonai, written under or over the Hebrew consonants to indicate pronunciation. This hybrid form is often attributed to Peter Galatin, confessor of Pope Leo X, in a publication dated 1518 C.E., but in actuality it can be traced back to a work by Raymond Martin in 1270.

    Jewish reverence for the divine name has influenced numerous modern translations, including the Septuagint. These translations follow the ancient synagogue practice and substitute Adonai (translated “El Señor” in Spanish, “Der Herr” in German, “The Lord” in English, and so on). The New Jerusalem Bible uses the presumed original form, “Yahweh."

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496
    • Divine name:  Citing a Jewish superstition as their authority, many Bible translators decided to remove the divine name from the Scriptures. They replaced that name with titles such as “God” or “Lord,” expressions applied in the Bible not only to the Creator but also to men, objects of false worship, and even the Devil.​—John 10:34, 35; 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6; 2 Corinthians 4:4.


  • @Bill_Coley wrote

    According to the information I discovered via a simple Google search, the move from YHWH to Lord/LORD in English language translations occurred without conspiracy or nefarious intent. Here are three of the sources I found:

    Thank you, Bill. I did know some of the mentioned information ....

    In particular the info about Masoretes adding "Adonai" vowel markings as well as Greek LXX translators changing from YHWH name to titles "Lord" (kurios), a word with an entirely different meaning which is not even a name. Sort of like changing the name "Wolfgang" into "pastor" or something lie that ...

    Thus, my question remains whether this practice by the translators is actually a translation error ... whether it was commonly accepted or not is a different matter. Was this a God willed and inspired change in Scripture or a human idea to "cement" something into Scripture which actually should better be corrected in newer translations of Hebrew OT ?

    What about the practice of "reverse engineering" of interpreting and changing (in meaning) the NT "lord" texts into YHWH texts?

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496
    edited November 5

    It goes further than removing God's Holy and Sacred Name. Changing the names of the prophets so that thier names wipe out the meaning referring to Jehovah. Even Hallelujah in the Hebrew text was changed to alleluia in the Greek... the praise text have Different Meanings.

    Hallelujah means Praise Jah. While Alleluia means Praise the Lord. So the removing of God's Name extended to the changing and altering of other words that once referred to Jehovah now refer to the Lord. Problem with that is to which Lord?? (ie... Psalm 110:1) Looking this up you will see most translations did keep the first LORD in Captials, giving the reader a clue. Most of these same readers also make the claim that God is God's Name when God is merely a title.

    Here, you will SEE at first, when removing Jah from Hallelujah it reads "Praise ye the LORD"

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496

    Thus, my question remains whether this practice by the translators is actually a translation error ... whether it was commonly accepted or not is a different matter. Was this a God willed and inspired change in Scripture or a human idea to "cement" something into Scripture which actually should better be corrected in newer translations of Hebrew OT ?

    What about the practice of "reverse engineering" of interpreting and changing (in meaning) the NT "lord" texts into YHWH texts?

    Yes... similar to 'reverse engineering' you can look up the Greek text that were taken and quoted from the Hebrew text. Let's try just one verse then you can do your own research.

    And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:21) Now.. if I told you that God's Name was in that verses, you would never beleive me. Even perhaps call me a liar. But this verse is a quote from the Hebrew Scripture where God's Personal Name was invoked. The reader would be assuming that the lord is jesus Christ in this verse unless they truly investigated it.

    To give you a hint... Notice this translation? See the LORD in Captials from the NLT?

    New Living Translation

    But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.’


    Now here's the tool you can use to reverse engineer the scripture:

    And it shall come to pass, thatwhosoever shall call on the name of  the LORD, ( Jehovah Jol 2:31,32 ) shall be saved. Acts 2:21

    Remember Psam 110:1 ? Here's another Greek text that is a quote from the Hebrew text: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the LORD, ( Jehovah Psa 110:1 )  said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"

    Here's a list that you can research if needed. http://www.dnkjb.net/1189chapters/scripturalbasis.htm

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,583

    @BroRando posted:

    It goes further than removing God's Holy and Sacred Name. Changing the names of the prophets so that thier names wipe out the meaning referring to Jehovah. Even Hallelujah in the Hebrew text was changed to alleluia in the Greek... the praise text have Different Meanings.

    From a practical faith perspective, I don't think this is a consequential issue.

    Though I don't like titles per se, and in fact instruct people to call me "Bill" rather than "pastor," titles can express position, role, relationship, and, potentially, respect.

    • I didn't call Fred Coley by his name, "Fred"; I called him by one of his titles/roles, "dad." Neither he nor I ever felt confused by what I called him. Neither did either of us ever forgot his name. But in our relationship, to me he was "dad," not "Fred."
    • Many of us experience a similar circumstance with our health care providers. I don't think I've ever called an MD by his or her first name. Those folks have always been "Doctor." My choice of title/role over name wasn't a rejection of their names, but rather an expression of acknowledgement and respect for their role or place in that moment.
    • Jesus most frequently addressed his prayers to and comments about God using the title/role "Father" rather than a specific name.


    I respect your concern for God's name, but Bible translation history does not suggest nefarious intent, and at a practical level, calling God by a title rather than a name is an appropriate acknowledgement of God's place in the world and our lives.


    [FWIW, I've never met a Christian who was even curious about, let alone confused by, the difference between the words "hallelujah" and "alleluia."]

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496
    edited November 5

    From a practical faith perspective, I don't think this is a consequential issue. I respect your concern for God's name, but Bible translation history does not suggest nefarious intent, and at a practical level, calling God by a title rather than a name is an appropriate acknowledgement of God's place in the world and our lives.

    What does 'Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Your Name' mean to you?

    Obviously not much since you stated "From a practical faith perspective, I don't think this is a consequential issue." Changing and altering scripture that was Inspired by Holy Spirit is inconsequential? Jesus was Zealous for his Father's Name.

    zealous

    zĕl′əs

    adjective

    • Filled with or motivated by zeal; fervent.
    • Filled with, or characterized by, zeal; warmly engaged, or ardent, in behalf of an object.
    • Filled with religious zeal.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

    More at Wordnik

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,583

    @BroRando posted:

    Obviously not much since you stated "From a practical faith perspective, I don't think this is a consequential issue." Changing and altering scripture that was Inspired by Holy Spirit is inconsequential? Jesus was Zealous for his Father's Name.

    And to whom did Jesus address the prayer he recommended to us, the prayer that asked for God's name to be "hallowed"? "Our Father" - a title, not a name.

    By language from a "practical faith perspective" I mean the ways people actually talk to and about God. Most of us - including Jesus - refer to God as "God," "Father," "Lord God," or some other term that reports a title or role, not a name. If in all his zealousness for God, Jesus STILL called God by a title or role, so can we and the Bibles we read, I contend.

  • @Wolfgang November 5 Why was YHWH actually replaced with "Lord"/"LORD" in many or just about all translations??

    Jewish scholars translated Hebrew יהוה into Greek Septuagint primarily as κύριος (Lord) a couple centuries before Jesus walked on earth, which established "Lord"/"LORD" precedent for subsequent translations.

    Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in Lexham Hebrew Bible has 6,828 results in 5,790 verses. Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in LXX Swete has 6,758 results in 5,727 verses. Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS <Lemma = lbs/el/κύριος> in LXX Swete has 6,076 results in 5,251 verses so κύριος (Lord) was the Jewish translation choice 90% (6,076/6,758) of the time. Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS <Lemma = lbs/el/θεός> in LXX SWETE has 247 results in 240 verses: 4% choice. Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> NOT INTERSECTS (<Lemma = lbs/el/κύριος> OR <Lemma = lbs/el/θεός>) in LXX Swete has 432 results in 422 verses, which shows some reverse interlinear alignment issues so 90% translation as κύριος and 4% translation as θεός is a bit understated (also noticed some 1st person pronouns as Jewish translation choice).

    @Wolfgang November 5 Is such a replacement (since "Lord" is NOT a true actual translation) of YHWH not a translation error?? If not, why not??

    Actually "Lord" is an accurate translation of a-do-NAI אדני that was/is spoken instead of יהוה (Jewish Masoretes obeyed Jewish oral law that disguised יהוה name for use outside the Jewish Temple by writing a-do-NAI (Lord) vowels with יהוה so "Jehovah" came into being ~500 years ago by someone who did not understand the Jewish Masoretic disguising of יהוה). Jewish priests correctly said יהוה inside Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Outside of reading Torah and praying today, Jews say HaShem (The Name) for יהוה => https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/hashem/

    Logos Bible search for <Root = lbs/he/אָדוֹן> BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in Lexham Hebrew Bible has 618 results in 299 verses. In 618 places, a-do-NAI (Lord) יהוה appears. Isaiah has 31 verses, which show translation of אדני יהוה as κύριος (Lord 15x), κύριος κύριος (Lord Lord 9x), δεσπότης Κύριος (Lord Master 3x), κύριος θεός (Lord God 2x), OR not translated (2x).


    @Wolfgang November 5 This translation problem is compounded upon by folks such as @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus who now take New Testament word like "Lord" and claim it means and is actually YHWH ,,,, ("... Jesus is יהוה Lord ...")

    New Testament was written by Jews or ones very familiar with Jewish culture. Paul's Jewish credentials are described in Phiippians 3:1-14 LEB  (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the יהוה Lord. To write the same things to you is not troublesome to me, but is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision, the ones who worship by the Spirit of אלהים God and boast in Christ Jesus and do not put confidence in the flesh, although I could have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else thinks to put confidence in the flesh, I can do so more: circumcised on the eighth day, from the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born from Hebrews, according to the law a Pharisee, according to zeal persecuting the church, according to the righteousness in the law being blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, these things I have considered loss because of Christ. More than that, I even consider all things to be loss because of the surpassing greatness of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my יהוה Lord, for the sake of whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and consider them dung, in order that I may gain Christ and may be found in him, not having my righteousness which is from the law, but which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from אלהים God on the basis of faith, so that I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, if somehow I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already received this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on if indeed I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ. Brothers, I do not consider myself to have laid hold of it. But I do one thing, forgetting the things behind and straining toward the things ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of אלהים God in Christ Jesus.

    Humanly wonder how many thousands of times Saul/Paul said/heard a-do-NAI אדני (Lord) or κύριος (Lord) spoken instead of יהוה every year. Pharisee training included memorizing every letter/word of Torah along with Jewish oral laws and traditions.


    @BroRando November 5 KJV translators were trinitarians. So they clouded up the scriptures.

    Jewish scholars were not trinitarians, who established "Lord/LORD" translation precedent over 1800 years before Authorized Version revision.

    The Bible translation committee authorized by King James were given printed Bible text from 1602 Bishops' Bible for revision => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version Printing was manually arranged in the 1600's that provided opportunities for typographical errors => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata (question for a printed 1611 King James Bible is He or She in Ruth 3:15)

    Blog article You've Probably Never Seen the Real King James Version includes link to The New Cambridge Paragraph Bible with the Apocrypha, rev. ed. (NCPB)


    @BroRando November 5 Elijah in Hebrew text which means My God is Jehovah was changed to Elias in the Greek Text. It wasn't done by accident or by a mistake. It was done by DESIGN to be DECEPTIVE.

    Logos Bible Search for Elijah in LXX Swete finds usual Jewish translation of Ἠλειού (Eleiou) along with some Ἠλιὰ (Elia) and Ἠλίας (Elias).

    ELIJAH (אליהו)

    —Biblical Data

    The name אליהו means “Yhwh is (my) God,” and is a confession that its bearer defended Yhwh against the worshipers of Baal and of other gods. It has therefore been assumed that the prophet took this name himself (Thenius, in “Kurzgefasstes Exegetisches Handbuch zu I Könige,” xvii. 1). Elijah was a prophet in Israel in the first half of the ninth pre-Christian century, under King Ahab. In 1 Kings 17:1 and 21:17, etc., Elijah is called “the Tishbite” (התשבי), probably because he came from a place (or a family) by the name of “Tishbe.” A place of that name lay within the boundaries of Naphtali (comp. Tobit 1:2). But the Hebrew words מתשבי גלעד must refer to a place in Gilead (see, however, Targum, Masoretes and David Ḳimḥi ad loc.).

     Isidore Singer, ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History, Religion, Literature, and Customs of the Jewish People from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 12 Volumes (New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls, 1901–1906), 121.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 496
    edited November 6

    Jewish scholars translated Hebrew into Greek Septuagint primarily as κύριος (Lord) a couple centuries before Jesus walked on earth, which established "Lord"/"LORD" precedent for subsequent translations.

    When the Hebrew text of the Old Testament was being transliterated into Greek, they kept the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in its form as יהוה  It was in the first century that the Tetragrammaton was then also transliterated using Greek Characters (IAO).

    "The divine name also appeared in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the “Old Testament” that was widely used in the first century C.E. At that time, the divine name was represented in the Septuagint by either the Hebrew characters (YHWH) or the Greek transliteration of those characters (IAO)."


    Read John 12:27-28


    Post edited by BroRando on
  • @BroRando November 5 When the Hebrew text of the Old Testament was being transliterated into Greek, they kept the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in its form as יהוה It was in the first century that the Tetragrammaton was then also transliterated using Greek Characters (IAO).

    What was the oral tradition for reading out loud the Greek written transliteration (ΙΑΩ) OR equivalent (ΠΙΠΙ) ?


    Curiousity question from seeing many links to JW organization: is your personal relationship with God "through" the JW organization ?

    If so, has the Watchtower magazine OR jw.org ever changed what to believe in your experience ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

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