Alcohol Worse Than Opioids?

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Comments

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    • “Do not look at wine” Prov. 23:31

    Taken out of context.

    • “Wine is treacherous” Hab. 2:5

    Again, out of context.

    • “Drink no wine nor strong drink” Lev. 10:9

    And again to no surprise, taken out of context.

    Reformed,
    Since you said they are "taken out of context", then, what is the context for each of the texts, if you don't mind enlightening me?

    • Prov. 23:31 -- _________________________________
    • Hab. 2:5 -- ____________________________________
    • Lev. 10:9 -- ____________________________________

    Do you accept or see light in the three major explanations that are generally given for the drinking of Alcohol or wine? If not, why not? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    • “Do not look at wine” Prov. 23:31

    Taken out of context.

    • “Wine is treacherous” Hab. 2:5

    Again, out of context.

    • “Drink no wine nor strong drink” Lev. 10:9

    And again to no surprise, taken out of context.

    Reformed,
    Since you said they are "taken out of context", then, what is the context for each of the texts, if you don't mind enlightening me?

    • Prov. 23:31 -- _________________________________
    • Hab. 2:5 -- ____________________________________
    • Lev. 10:9 -- ____________________________________

    Do you accept or see light in the three major explanations that are generally given for the drinking of Alcohol or wine? If not, why not? CM

    Well for starters, quote the entire verse, not just one little blip, and you will clearly see that even the verse itself doesn't say what you are claiming.

    What three major explanations? There is only one biblical explanation. That explanation is plain in Scripture. There is nothing wrong with the fermented drink, there IS something wrong with being drunk.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Do you accept or see light in the three major explanations that are generally given for the drinking of Alcohol or wine? If not, why not? CM

    Well for starters, quote the entire verse, not just one little blip, and you will clearly see that even the verse itself doesn't say what you are claiming.

    What three major explanations? There is only one biblical explanation. That explanation is plain in Scripture. There is nothing wrong with the fermented drink, there IS something wrong with being drunk.

    Reformed,
    Not much to go on. Anything beyond the "for starters" on the following text Prov. 23:31; Hab. 2:5; Lev. 10:9? Please re-read the stories of Nadab and Abihu and Uzzah. Wine (fermented) is destructive n the cause of God. Clearly, you have missed the passage of Isa. 28:7.

    To be sure, I understand you, is it the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is your position and what you deem as the "only one biblical explanation"? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Do you accept or see light in the three major explanations that are generally given for the drinking of Alcohol or wine? If not, why not? CM

    Well for starters, quote the entire verse, not just one little blip, and you will clearly see that even the verse itself doesn't say what you are claiming.

    What three major explanations? There is only one biblical explanation. That explanation is plain in Scripture. There is nothing wrong with the fermented drink, there IS something wrong with being drunk.

    Reformed,
    Not much to go on. Anything beyond the "for starters" on the following text Prov. 23:31; Hab. 2:5; Lev. 10:9? Please re-read the stories of Nadab and Abihu and Uzzah. Wine (fermented) is destructive n the cause of God. Clearly, you have missed the passage of Isa. 28:7.

    To be sure, I understand you, is it the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is your position and what you deem as the "only one biblical explanation"? CM

    Yes the Bible is clear that alcohol is fine as long as you are not drunk.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    Sir,
    Have forgotten the most recent research in the OP: "Alcohol Worse than Opioids"?

    Why would the Man of God indulge with intoxication substances and encouraging members and youth to drink as long as they don't get drunk? This substance destroys body organs (e.g. liver, heart, etc.), causes death, accidents (auto, etc.), and jobs are lost, and the destruction of too many families. The Bible is the Christian guide long before research (past or recent). Have you not read:

    " And these also (a) reel with wine and stagger from strong drink:
    (b) The priest and (c) the prophet reel with strong drink,
    They are confused by wine, they stagger from (d) strong drink;
    They reel while (1) having evisions,
    They totter when rendering judgment (Isa. 28:7 NASB95).

    a Is 5:11 Is 5:22 Is 22:13 Is 56:12 Ho 4:11
    b Is 24:2
    c Is 9:15
    d Hab 2:15 Hab 2:16
    1 Lit seeing
    e Is 29:11

    Preacher, have you not read what alcohol does to the brain? Are you telling me Christians don't have an obligation to God to care for their bodies?

    Your stated position above put you, the church and Christians (who shares your views) in bed with the Alcohol and Beverage Manufacturers/Distributors, the US Government (who taxes, licensed bars, restaurants, package stores, etc). In addition, you will be in opposition to law enforcement, hospitals, and promoter of health. Is this something the church and Christians should be endorsing and promoting?

    Lastly, is there any on-going nutritional benefits to alcohol? You may want to reconsider your promotion, usage, and endorsement to youth and weak adults.

    Reformed, I take issue that the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is the "only one biblical explanation". I will share with you at another time.

    Alcohol destroyed bodies, people, families, property, and relationships. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:
    Sir,
    Have forgotten the most recent research in the OP: "Alcohol Worse than Opioids"?

    Why would the Man of God indulge with intoxication substances and encouraging members and youth to drink as long as they don't get drunk? This substance destroys body organs (e.g. liver, heart, etc.), causes death, accidents (auto, etc.), and jobs are lost, and the destruction of too many families. The Bible is the Christian guide long before research (past or recent). Have you not read:

    It does not do those things if you do not abuse it. So I don't take things out of context to say things that they don't actually say. The Bible clearly says alcohol is fine as long as you do not get drunk. I also wouldn't encourage youth, that is against the law.

    " And these also (a) reel with wine and stagger from strong drink:
    (b) The priest and (c) the prophet reel with strong drink,
    They are confused by wine, they stagger from (d) strong drink;
    They reel while (1) having evisions,
    They totter when rendering judgment (Isa. 28:7 NASB95).

    a Is 5:11 Is 5:22 Is 22:13 Is 56:12 Ho 4:11
    b Is 24:2
    c Is 9:15
    d Hab 2:15 Hab 2:16
    1 Lit seeing
    e Is 29:11

    Preacher, have you not read what alcohol does to the brain? Are you telling me Christians don't have an obligation to God to care for their bodies?

    Again, it doesn't do those things if you do not abuse it. You really don't know what you are talking about.

    Your stated position above put you, the church and Christians (who shares your views) in bed with the Alcohol and Beverage Manufacturers/Distributors, the US Government (who taxes, licensed bars, restaurants, package stores, etc). In addition, you will be in opposition to law enforcement, hospitals, and promoter of health. Is this something the church and Christians should be endorsing and promoting?

    How does saying the Bible permits drinking alcohol oppose law enforcement, hospitals, and promoters of health? It doesn't.

    Lastly, is there any on-going nutritional benefits to alcohol? You may want to reconsider your promotion, usage, and endorsement to youth and weak adults.

    Actually yes. It is good for the stomach, that is found in Scripture. And who said I endorse youth drinking? Never once will you see where I encouraged youth to break the law.

    Reformed, I take issue that the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is the "only one biblical explanation". I will share with you at another time.

    Alcohol destroyed bodies, people, families, property, and relationships. CM

    I really don't think you are taking issue with me, you are taking issue with Scripture which is against you on this subject. The view I hold is the only proper view of Scripture on this matter. You can't twist it any other way.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230
    edited November 2018

    @reformed said:

    How does saying the Bible permits drinking alcohol oppose law enforcement, hospitals, and promoters of health? It doesn't.

    Lastly, is there any on-going nutritional benefits to alcohol? You may want to reconsider your promotion, usage, and endorsement to youth and weak adults.

    Actually yes. It is good for the stomach, that is found in Scripture. And who said I endorse youth drinking? Never once will you see where I encouraged youth to break the law.

    Reformed, I take issue that the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is the "only one biblical explanation". I will share with you at another time.

    Alcohol destroyed bodies, people, families, property, and relationships. CM

    I really don't think you are taking issue with me, you are taking issue with Scripture which is against you on this subject. The view I hold is the only proper view of Scripture on this matter. You can't twist it any other way.

    Reformed,

    Alcohol destroys lives slowly and immediately, in the past, present, and future. No, I am not in opposition with Scripture. The opposite is true. Scripture is in support of my views.

    How could you say such when recent research says, "Alcohol is Worse Than Opioids".

    'The Numbers Are So Staggering.’ Overdose Deaths Set a Record Last Year.

    By JOSH KATZ and MARGOT SANGER-KATZ NOV. 29, 2018
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/29/upshot/fentanyl-drug-overdose-deaths.html

        "The recent increases in drug overdose deaths have been so steep that they have contributed to reductions in the country’s life expectancy over the last three years, a pattern unprecedented since World War II. **Life expectancy at birth has fallen by nearly four months, and drug overdoses are the leading cause of death for adults under 55"**
    

    ... Synthetic drugs tend to be more deadly than prescription pills and heroin for two main reasons. They are usually more potent, meaning small errors in measurement can lead to an overdose. The blends of synthetic drugs also tend to change frequently, making it easy for drug users to underestimate the strength of the drug they are injecting. In some parts of the country, drugs sold as heroin are exclusively fentanyls now.

    With positions like yours, I can see why "Alcohol is Worse". The church must consider changing its attitude toward alcohol-- the gateway to addiction. We must allow biblical truth to speak to the times in which we live. I will reflect on "the Moderationist View" of consuming by church members, adults, and youth in my next post. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    How does saying the Bible permits drinking alcohol oppose law enforcement, hospitals, and promoters of health? It doesn't.

    Lastly, is there any on-going nutritional benefits to alcohol? You may want to reconsider your promotion, usage, and endorsement to youth and weak adults.

    Actually yes. It is good for the stomach, that is found in Scripture. And who said I endorse youth drinking? Never once will you see where I encouraged youth to break the law.

    Reformed, I take issue that the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is the "only one biblical explanation". I will share with you at another time.

    Alcohol destroyed bodies, people, families, property, and relationships. CM

    I really don't think you are taking issue with me, you are taking issue with Scripture which is against you on this subject. The view I hold is the only proper view of Scripture on this matter. You can't twist it any other way.

    Reformed,

    Alcohol destroys lives slowly and immediately, in the past, present, and future. No, I am not in opposition with Scripture. The opposite is true. Scripture is in support of my views.

    How could you say such when recent research says, "Alcohol is Worse Than Opioids".

    'The Numbers Are So Staggering.’ Overdose Deaths Set a Record Last Year.

    By JOSH KATZ and MARGOT SANGER-KATZ NOV. 29, 2018
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/29/upshot/fentanyl-drug-overdose-deaths.html

        "The recent increases in drug overdose deaths have been so steep that they have contributed to reductions in the country’s life expectancy over the last three years, a pattern unprecedented since World War II. **Life expectancy at birth has fallen by nearly four months, and drug overdoses are the leading cause of death for adults under 55"**
    

    ... Synthetic drugs tend to be more deadly than prescription pills and heroin for two main reasons. They are usually more potent, meaning small errors in measurement can lead to an overdose. The blends of synthetic drugs also tend to change frequently, making it easy for drug users to underestimate the strength of the drug they are injecting. In some parts of the country, drugs sold as heroin are exclusively fentanyls now.

    With positions like yours, I can see why "Alcohol is Worse". The church must consider changing its attitude toward alcohol-- the gateway to addiction. We must allow biblical truth to speak to the times in which we live. I will reflect on "the Moderationist View" of consuming by church members, adults, and youth in my next post. CM

    You can't deny you are adding to Scripture.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    Reformed, I take issue that the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is the "only one biblical explanation". I will share with you at another time.

    Alcohol destroyed bodies, people, families, property, and relationships. CM

    I really don't think you are taking issue with me, you are taking issue with Scripture which is against you on this subject. The view I hold is the only proper view of Scripture on this matter. You can't twist it any other way.

    Reformed,

    Alcohol destroys lives slowly and immediately, in the past, present, and future. No, I am not in opposition with Scripture. The opposite is true. Scripture is in support of my views.

    How could you say such when recent research says, "Alcohol is Worse Than Opioids".

    You can't deny you are adding to Scripture.

    Reformed,
    Adding to [the] Scripture? How? Correction, I am applying Scripture (principle truth/current research-reality). The Great Preacher, Charles Spurgeon, once said, "a preacher should hold the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other". "Men of the cloth" should speak to the times. Don't you think? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    Reformed, I take issue that the Moderationist View -- (believe Scripture condemns the immoderate use (abuse) of alcoholic beverages, but it approves their moderate use) -- is the "only one biblical explanation". I will share with you at another time.

    Alcohol destroyed bodies, people, families, property, and relationships. CM

    I really don't think you are taking issue with me, you are taking issue with Scripture which is against you on this subject. The view I hold is the only proper view of Scripture on this matter. You can't twist it any other way.

    Reformed,

    Alcohol destroys lives slowly and immediately, in the past, present, and future. No, I am not in opposition with Scripture. The opposite is true. Scripture is in support of my views.

    How could you say such when recent research says, "Alcohol is Worse Than Opioids".

    You can't deny you are adding to Scripture.

    Reformed,
    Adding to [the] Scripture? How? Correction, I am applying Scripture (principle truth/current research-reality). The Great Preacher, Charles Spurgeon, once said, "a preacher should hold the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other". "Men of the cloth" should speak to the times. Don't you think? CM

    Absoutely. But that is not what you are doing. Alcohol is not worse than opioids. Abuse of alcohol maybe, but that is an entirely different matter.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    Adding to [the] Scripture? How? Correction, I am applying Scripture (principle truth/current research-reality). The Great Preacher, Charles Spurgeon, once said, "a preacher should hold the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other". "Men of the cloth" should speak to the times. Don't you think? CM

    Absoutely. But that is not what you are doing. Alcohol is not worse than opioids. Abuse of alcohol maybe, but that is an entirely different matter.

    Reformed,
    Please re-read the OP again. I didn't make it up. This is recent research. Here is a quote from the USA Today News article. Read the entire article for yourself.

    "...As opioid overdoses, which kill about 72,000 people a year, grabbed America's attention, the slower moving epidemic of alcohol accelerated, especially in Southern states and the nation's capital. About 88,000 people die each year from alcohol. Making matters worse, alcoholism is trickier to treat – and criticize – than opioid addiction"...

    You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. You're not being accurate or fair to my position, thus far. So let's slow down and speak to the times. Besides, I still have more to say on the "Moderationist View" of drinking. This may make you uncomfortable, let's remain open to reason, in light of the Word. You're not a literalist, are you? For you, does the Bible has to say, "thou shalt not drink alcohol"? Or Opioids is not in the Bible, therefore it's alright?

    Faith in God or accepting the "Inspired" Word (Bible) doesn't strip one of common sense and reasoning. Stay with me. We all can learn new things from an "Ancient Book" and God's illumination of the inspired revelation. CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    "About 88,000 people die each year from alcohol. Making matters worse, alcoholism is trickier to treat – and criticize – than opioid addiction..." Recent research alone invalidates your position. How can a Christian consume alcohol in light of the statement above and the Bible truth? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:
    "About 88,000 people die each year from alcohol. Making matters worse, alcoholism is trickier to treat – and criticize – than opioid addiction..." Recent research alone invalidates your position. How can a Christian consume alcohol in light of the statement above and the Bible truth? CM

    Because the Bible does not prohibit it in any general sense whatsoever. So, while I personally do not drink, I cannot prohibit or even look down on someone for enjoying alcohol and not abusing it. You cannot build a Scriptural argument to do so.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,230

    The moderationist view rests on the fundamental assumption that the Bible knows only of fermented wine, which it considers a divine blessing to be freely enjoyed with moderation. Consequently, any condemnation of wine in the Bible refers not to the kind of wine (alcoholic), but to the amount consumed. Recent research has challenged the “one wine” theory, by showing that the Hebrew and Greek words (yayin and oinos) which are uniformly rendered “wine” throughout the Scripture, can refer to either unfermented grape juice or to fermented wine.

    Below are two authors who hold the your view and the moderatist position:

    1. In his book, God Gave Wine, Kenneth Gentry said:
    • “Scripture allows wine to be consumed both for health and pleasure—but in moderation”
    • “Wine and a sense of humor for that matter, were given to us by a beneficent God who knew from time to time we would need them”
    1. Similarly, Pastor Ernest J. Kolenda:
      • contends that bread and wine are two staple food given to us by God for our daily nourishment.

    The moderationist view major weaknesses are that Scripture both condemns and commends wine itself,** irrespective of the quantity used**.
    1. Wine is denounced as “treacherous” (Hab 2:5) and
    2. As “a mocker” (Prov 20:1)
    3. That “bites like a serpent and stings like an adder” (Prov 23:32).

    To avoid the shame and suffering caused by drinking fermented wine, Scripture admonishes not moderation but total abstinence: “Do not look at wine” (Prov 23:31).

    The reason for this absolute prohibition is no doubt the fact that gazing at something attractive is the first step toward partaking it. What say ye? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,572

    @C_M_ said:
    The moderationist view rests on the fundamental assumption that the Bible knows only of fermented wine, which it considers a divine blessing to be freely enjoyed with moderation. Consequently, any condemnation of wine in the Bible refers not to the kind of wine (alcoholic), but to the amount consumed. Recent research has challenged the “one wine” theory, by showing that the Hebrew and Greek words (yayin and oinos) which are uniformly rendered “wine” throughout the Scripture, can refer to either unfermented grape juice or to fermented wine.

    Below are two authors who hold the your view and the moderatist position:

    1. In his book, God Gave Wine, Kenneth Gentry said:
    • “Scripture allows wine to be consumed both for health and pleasure—but in moderation”
    • “Wine and a sense of humor for that matter, were given to us by a beneficent God who knew from time to time we would need them”
    1. Similarly, Pastor Ernest J. Kolenda:
      • contends that bread and wine are two staple food given to us by God for our daily nourishment.

    The moderationist view major weaknesses are that Scripture both condemns and commends wine itself,** irrespective of the quantity used**.
    1. Wine is denounced as “treacherous” (Hab 2:5) and
    2. As “a mocker” (Prov 20:1)
    3. That “bites like a serpent and stings like an adder” (Prov 23:32).

    To avoid the shame and suffering caused by drinking fermented wine, Scripture admonishes not moderation but total abstinence: “Do not look at wine” (Prov 23:31).

    The reason for this absolute prohibition is no doubt the fact that gazing at something attractive is the first step toward partaking it. What say ye? CM

    I say that the recent research is absurd and goes against the regular scholarship.

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